Two man crew coverage during fast break

[Jimgolf]

While watching a girls 14U tournament Saturday, and a 16U boys tournament Friday, I noticed that on fast breaks, certain defenders can whack the shooter with impunity, since the shooter shields them from the view of the lead official and the trail official is usually too far away to see anything or is concentrating on the trailers and not the players near the basket.

Is this a flaw in the way these particular officials are covering the court, or is this a known blind spot that cannot be avoided?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Is this a flaw in the way these particular officials are covering the court, or is this a known blind spot that cannot be avoided?

The former.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
While watching a girls 14U tournament Saturday, and a 16U boys tournament Friday, I noticed that on fast breaks, certain defenders can whack the shooter with impunity, since the shooter shields them from the view of the lead official and the trail official is usually too far away to see anything or is concentrating on the trailers and not the players near the basket.

Is this a flaw in the way these particular officials are covering the court, or is this a known blind spot that cannot be avoided?

So Jim what you are saying is that the officials were not calling fouls that in your estimation should have been called. Hmmmmmm....were they "missing" these calls on both ends of the floor? Were you an "objective" observer? (if there is such an animal).


__________________________________________________ ______
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."--Mark Twain

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TravelinMan

So Jim what you are saying is that the officials were not calling fouls that in your estimation should have been called. Hmmmmmm....were they "missing" these calls on both ends of the floor? Were you an "objective" observer? (if there is such an animal).

Traveler-- He may or may not be objective, but this is a difficulty a ref can have. I know it took me a while to figure out how to work it.

Jim -- Of course the best way to cover the play is for the new lead to be out ahead of the players, and set up on the endline, facing back, before the shot goes up. Some of us don't always run fast enough to make that happen.

The next best then, is to drop back enough that you can step in behind the pair and get a view in between them. The best is to see the shooter's arms and the ball. From there you can judge the amount of contact and the effect on the shot.

What happens before the experience kicks in is that the ref is trying to get ahead of the play, but can't for whatever reason. Then he is straightlined and has no way to tell what actually happened. Incidentally, this is a problem whether the offense or defense are closer to the ref.

The only solution is for the ref to either take some track coaching, or be humble enough to admit a weakness.

[ref18]

That's the reason that with 2 officials you're always moving to get the best angle.

That's why 3-man officiating is so much easier, because someone always has the angle. Most of the time.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Traveler-- He may or may not be objective, but this is a difficulty a ref can have. I know it took me a while to figure out how to work it.

Jim -- Of course the best way to cover the play is for the new lead to be out ahead of the players, and set up on the endline, facing back, before the shot goes up. Some of us don't always run fast enough to make that happen.

The next best then, is to drop back enough that you can step in behind the pair and get a view in between them. The best is to see the shooter's arms and the ball. From there you can judge the amount of contact and the effect on the shot.

What happens before the experience kicks in is that the ref is trying to get ahead of the play, but can't for whatever reason. Then he is straightlined and has no way to tell what actually happened. Incidentally, this is a problem whether the offense or defense are closer to the ref.

The only solution is for the ref to either take some track coaching, or be humble enough to admit a weakness.

Actually, how fast you are won't always help you either. If you are working trail the way you are supposed to, you WILL get beat back. I can run down some of the younger kids, and some of the girls at the varsity level, but if I'm working the backside of a play and I'm around FTL extended and a long rebound happens, I'm toast. Unless you have world class speed we all are in that situation.

It comes down to working it from either behind, moving toward the center of the court, or working it wider to get a look like the center would have in 3 whistle. But like you said the worst thing you can do is try to outrun it if you can't get there easily.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Actually, how fast you are won't always help you either. If you are working trail the way you are supposed to, you WILL get beat back. I can run down some of the younger kids, and some of the girls at the varsity level, but if I'm working the backside of a play and I'm around FTL extended and a long rebound happens, I'm toast. Unless you have world class speed we all are in that situation.

It comes down to working it from either behind, moving toward the center of the court, or working it wider to get a look like the center would have in 3 whistle. But like you said the worst thing you can do is try to outrun it if you can't get there easily.

You are 100% correct, of course. In 2-person, no one can beat the ball every time, so it's important to have that fall in behind thing down solid. (Actually, the hardest part of that move is getting out from behind if you don't need to call a foul.) But it ought to happen only two or three times in a game, except for the highest level of varsity. At least that's the mantra around here.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

You are 100% correct, of course. In 2-person, no one can beat the ball every time, so it's important to have that fall in behind thing down solid. (Actually, the hardest part of that move is getting out from behind if you don't need to call a foul.) But it ought to happen only two or three times in a game, except for the highest level of varsity. At least that's the mantra around here.

In Arizona our former commissioner was so pro NBA, that it got crazy. We had they grey shirts, we were using non-fed mechanics, funny how we never got 3-person passed.

Anyway, he stressed new lead getting to the endline before the ball crossed the division line. That is the NBA influence and you found so many officals CHEATING back on the shot, just so they would not get beat back, that the games suffered.

I find in those rare ocassions where I'm beat, that working it wide gives me a better look, then moving toward the center of the court. I can see the whole play, adjust for the look through, and get to the endline easier from the sideline versus the closest lane line.

[NICK]

With 2-man it sometimes impossible to get ahead of the fast-break. When getting beat on the fast-break with no chance of getting in front of the play, I usually button-hook around the play and see the gaps from behind the players driving to the basket then adjust if there is no contact. We also tend to get the trail to help as much as possible because he/she will see more of the action than the lead official.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by NICK
With 2-man it sometimes impossible to get ahead of the fast-break. When getting beat on the fast-break with no chance of getting in front of the play, I usually button-hook around the play and see the gaps from behind the players driving to the basket then adjust if there is no contact. We also tend to get the trail to help as much as possible because he/she will see more of the action than the lead official.

I can't see the trail EVER making a call on ball during a fast break. Unless the lead had a heart attack. The trail shouldn't even be watching that play. Their responsibility is the 8 players behind the fast break.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by TravelinMan

So Jim what you are saying is that the officials were not calling fouls that in your estimation should have been called. Hmmmmmm....were they "missing" these calls on both ends of the floor? Were you an "objective" observer? (if there is such an animal).


__________________________________________________ ______
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."--Mark Twain

I was sitting to the right of the basket, close to the floor. Normally when I watch youth basketball I'm at the scorer's table at the center of the court, or I'm higher up behind the end line. This is probably why I've never noticed this before.

When I referee, it is almost always a one-man game at a rec league, so I'm not too aware of two-man mechanics, particularly at this level. I was watching the boys' games to show my youngest what the level of play was like at 16U, and the girls games because I had an errand to attend to in the facility, so I had no rooting interest and I guess I was objective as anyone can be.

The non-calls involved both teams, but I really couldn't say what happended on the other end of the floor, since I couldn't see that far. The plays were not instances of two players beating the refs down the floor, but three-on-two breaks and four-on-two breaks after steals from pressing. The lead officials (all in pretty good shape) were invariably still behind the action when the shots were taken (New York City 16U AAU is about equal in speed to D1 NCAA, so this is not surprising), and when the lead official was coming up the left side, I couldn't see him, so I figured they couldn't see the action in front of me. In effect, both lead and trail are behind the action. I saw significant contact that I would have called a foul, but it also appeared to me that there was no way it could be seen by the lead official, and that the trail official was still back by the other foul line, primarily watching the trailing players. In the 14U girls games, this was not as frequent a problem, but was still noticeable on occasion, especially since I was more aware of the situation after Friday night's games.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra
I find in those rare ocassions where I'm beat, that working it wide gives me a better look, then moving toward the center of the court. I can see the whole play, adjust for the look through, and get to the endline easier from the sideline versus the closest lane line.

I see your point here. I'm going to have to try this, because it makes a lot of sense to me.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
I was sitting to the right of the basket, close to the floor. Normally when I watch youth basketball I'm at the scorer's table at the center of the court, or I'm higher up behind the end line. This is probably why I've never noticed this before.

To improve your officiating, it pays to watch games from several different angles. Sitting where you can see clearly from the lead's point of view is a very valuable learning experience. You should try to do this at least once or twice a season, especially in a high-level game with top-notch officials. It's a great way to learn the art of the no-call.

[TPS2859]

Rainmaker(Juls)
I liked your first thread on this subject.
I may be beaten on a fast break, but only once in a game (two man). Most often it is a set play and I'll be looking for it for the rest of the game. As far as getting beaten on a three man, shame on you if you have an O and D player farther back than you on trail !

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TPS2859
As far as getting beaten on a three man, shame on you if you have an O and D player farther back than you on trail !

Well, shame on the majority of NCAA and NBA officials then. When the ball goes the other way in a hurry on a steal,etc., it's not uncommon at all for an O & D player to get in front of a trail that has to stop and reverse directions in a hurry.