block/charge

oc · #1 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 09:08pm

A1 is driving the lane and jumps toward the hoop. B1 comes into block the path, after A1 is airborn (legal guarding position is not set). A1 with the ball in their right hand pushes B1 with their left arm/elbow. If A1 had kept their arm to themself it would have been a blocking foul on B1. What's the call?

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 10:07pm

PC foul.

RookieDude · #3 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 10:29pm

A1 pushed B1 with their arm/elbow before B1 could get out of the way to avoid the block.
PC foul on A1.

TravelinMan · #4 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 10:43pm

OK question. Is a PC counted toward team fouls and bonus?

RookieDude · #5 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 10:45pm

Sure.
But B1 would not shoot a FT for the PC foul.

TravelinMan · #6 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 10:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Sure.
But B1 would not shoot a FT for the PC foul.

So, if team A had 6 team fouls and A1 comits a PC, team B would be shooting a 1 and 1. Yes?

oc · #7 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TravelinMan

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Sure.
But B1 would not shoot a FT for the PC foul.

So, if team A had 6 team fouls and A1 comits a PC, team B would be shooting a 1 and 1. Yes?

No

RookieDude · #8 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 12:13am

Even though it is the 7th team foul for Team A...B1 would not shoot a FT because the 7th foul was a PC foul.

Sooooo, you could have 7 team fouls on the board with no FT's being shot.
Is that what you are asking TravelinMan?

rainmaker · #9 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 01:04am

You never shoot PC.

rainmaker · #10 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 01:05am

Unless you deem it "intentional".

bob jenkins · #11 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 07:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Unless you deem it "intentional".

And then it's not, by definition, PC.

TravelinMan · #12 (**permalink**) Sun May 23, 2004, 07:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Even though it is the 7th team foul for Team A...B1 would not shoot a FT because the 7th foul was a PC foul.

Sooooo, you could have 7 team fouls on the board with no FT's being shot.
Is that what you are asking TravelinMan?

Yes, just wanted to clarify for members listening in.

Daryl H. Long · #13 (**permalink**) Sun May 23, 2004, 11:04pm

Blocking foul by B. Contact occurred because B was 1)not entitled to the spot on the floor and 2)did not establish legal guarding position.

Remember, when A returns to the floor his arms come with him. His arms even go with him as he continues in the air toward the basket. When the contact occurred it is not A who initiated it but B did, therefore B's foul.

Don't complicate a textbook block (as you described) by over-analyzing it.

RookieDude · #14 (**permalink**) Sun May 23, 2004, 11:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Blocking foul by B. Contact occurred because B was 1)not entitled to the spot on the floor and 2)did not establish legal guarding position.

Remember, when A returns to the floor his arms come with him. His arms even go with him as he continues in the air toward the basket. When the contact occurred it is not A who initiated it but B did, therefore B's foul.

Don't complicate a textbook block (as you described) by over-analyzing it.

Soooo...if A's arms "come down with him" swinging, punching, pushing, etc. it's OK?

Daryl H. Long · #15 (**permalink**) Mon May 24, 2004, 12:49am

If I'm not mistaken, the thread established that A's contact was neither flagrant nor intentional. There was no swinging, there was no punching, nor did A push B intentionally. Once A is airborne he cannot alter his momentum nor change where he will land. B did not get legal guarding position and by defintion he is responsible for causing illegal contact. See Point of Emphasis on page 71 of Rule book. It gives criteria for determining block/charge (subheading E).
Point 1. Addresses two factors.
a.Who was at the spot first? ANS. A
b.Was the guard FACING the player with the ball
with two feet on the playing court? ( this is
the same as asking did the guard have legal
Guarding position?) ANS. NO

Therefore B initated the contact. Reading further on page 71 in Point 4. Contact initiated by the defense (on or off the ball) that involves lower body, non-vertical contact and defending a perimeter player or AN AIRBORNE PLAYER, should be "BLOCK."

In my opinion, the mere fact that while airborne A's arm/elbow contacted B that was incidental therefore ignored. Rule 10.6.1 makes it possible for either player to have arms is a position to afford him protection or to absorb the force of contact. Charge B with Blocking foul and shoot appropriate free throws.

But. Let's assume for the sake of argument that A could try for goal (concentrating on judging proper distance/arc needed to be sucessful) with his right hand and at the same time with his left hand punch or swing at a defender occupying an illegal space on the floor. (This is hard for me to believe. In 25 years of officiating and 18 years of evaluating Division 1 officials have I ever seen this happen to be called)

B is still guilty of a block. Nothing A does can exonerate B if he was responsible for the contact. B is guilty of a personal foul. Charge A with a flagrant personal foul and eject. This is a double foul. No free throws, AP throw in.

So, given the play as described by OC in original post and even given the scenario by RookieDude, by definition A still is not charged with a player control foul in either case.

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on May 24th, 2004 at 01:54 AM]