Player ignores ref

[Kelvin green]

Coach the fact is that only referees know the rules. You should know that by now! How could we expect that a coach know the rules? how could we expect that a coach knows his players and knows what they do and say on the floor.? This is just impossible!!!

I have never called a T on a player, then told the coach why, and the coach says" yeah it figures", yanks the kid from the game and lectures him. Never happens

Face it, in all my years of refereeing I have never met a coach who actually taught me anything. I have never learned a thing about basketball from a coach. The only people who truly understand the game are us referees. Referees are never arrogant, always approachaable, and communcate appropriately every single game. In fact I know I there was a stretch there ( nearly 13 months) I did not make a bad call, nor did I miss one. I cant believe that we would ever make a mistake. The rules are clear, there is no room for interpretation or judgement.

and worse than all of this is the referees who actaully would believe all this.

We have too many officials who wont listen to a coach because a coach provides the coaching perspective... Go figure-

Keep up you insights! Does not matter if you ever stepped out on a floor and ever reffed a game. never has-never will!

[Hawks Coach]

Kelvin
You forgot that I never have had any discussions with refs, or that in empty quiet gyms you still can't hear what those crafty guys say to your players cause they're really good at concealing things from coaches. In fact, that's what most refs practice when they aren't studying the rules that they know better than me.

Actually, you really didn't miss too many calls on your last tour of duty, now did you

[tomegun]

I'm sorry if you took what I said that way. I commend you on the ability to ever remain calm after giving instructions and then having your team do the opposite. That would drive me crazy!
I don't know what points you would like me to address. I think there is a time to talk and a time to use the whistle. I wouldn't give a T in this situation but I would shut up and let the player hang him/herself or it will blow over and the game will end. I have even asked for a sub before instead of tossing someone with one T already. What might seem harsh in words is not really that bad in action. I'm on a mission for the perfect game. Playerwise and what the officiating crew does too. I don't get off on ignoring coaches with questions or players with attitudes. That is not what it is about. When coaches complain they really don't know that cheating is so far out of our minds that it is silly to even say. If I never gave another T or had another altercation with a player or coach I would be fine with it. But, the fact is I will call the game the way I was trained and have learned to call the game whether it is popular or not.
I honestly did not mean to offend you but sometimes your posts cause me to remember that right now you think like a coach most of the time. I have played as recently as last month in an over-30 league and I thought like a player. It is just a different mindset thats all. Things I would say in a discussion in player mode I would not say in a discussion in ref mode. Does one help the other? Absolutely, but they must remain apart.
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. That is not what this is about.

[footlocker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref

I believe that you are unfairly helping the inbounding team.

I don't point this out to the inbounding team until the defense has also taken the floor. Furthermore, my signal can be seen by the whole gym: defense, offense, partner, and coaches.

It's good for the game and I have been told by my association to do so. If you want to live in your rulebook only, or if your association doesn't require this, then do as you please. (or do as you please anyway.)

I'll continue this practice till I'm instructed to stop.

[canuckrefguy]

I have NEVER been told by any evaluator not to remind the thrower that they can run the endline, or that they're on the spot. I HAVE been told many, many times that it's good game management, and a sign of being a good communicator.

Unfairly helping the offensive team?

[Adam]

I always point this out, whether there's pressure or not. Even if the offense is the only side who hears it, it's not unfair since I do it for both teams when applicable. It's no more an unfair advantage than pointing out the spot on a spot throwin.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Dan, If you can find something in the mechanics manual that instructs the official to do this, then I will happily do so, but in the absence of that I believe that you are unfairly helping the inbounding team.

Nevada, paragraph #219 in the Officials' Manual says that "The spot for the throw-in should be designated by the administering official."

Maybe this is debatable, but it seems to me that if you designate the spot before every throw-in, you either designate one spot (point to the floor) or indicate that it's not a designated spot throw-in.

Thoughts?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Dan, If you can find something in the mechanics manual that instructs the official to do this, then I will happily do so, but in the absence of that I believe that you are unfairly helping the inbounding team. It is the coach's job to instruct his team on these type of tactics, not the official's.
I can agree with giving a signal for designating the spot, as that is clearly one of our duties, but not much else.

You're kidding, right? It's our JOB to designate a spot and communicate it. It's our job to tell the thrower in that he has a designated spot or can run the endline.

I've never, NEVER met a top official who didn't do this. Heck, on a timeout we'll communicate this information to the benches.

Besides, all our games are filmed now. I want that film to show I've designated a spot or communicated that the thrower-in can run the line. Why would you want to be put in a position to have to make that call?

[Hawks Coach]

Evey good official I know designates that you can run the endline when you are coming out of a TO (and that is really the only sitch where you need to do this). If they don't, and we have the ball coming in, I will make sure he knows that we can run the endline, just so we don't get hosed with a bad whistle. Of course, that has never happened .

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by tomegun
I'm sorry if you took what I said that way.
I honestly did not mean to offend you but sometimes your posts cause me to remember that right now you think like a coach most of the time. I have played as recently as last month in an over-30 league and I thought like a player. It is just a different mindset thats all. Things I would say in a discussion in player mode I would not say in a discussion in ref mode. Does one help the other? Absolutely, but they must remain apart.
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. That is not what this is about.

It's pretty hard to offend me - I take everything for what it's worth. But let's be clar - I was more put off by your strong hints that I don't know what's going on on the floor because I am a coach and confined to the sideline than by any suggestion that I bring a coach's perspective to the forum. Your post connected the two thoughts, indicating that not only do I bring a coach's perspective, but that such a perspective is by its nature uninformed. It is that aspct of your post that I take issue with.

Of course I bring a coach's perspective, although I would also argue it is a bit broader than that of a coach during a game trying to win that game. I don't come here like some to whine about how the refs hosed me. I don't come here trying to win a game - that is the coach or player's perspective during a game. A good coach after the game is very self-critical, evaluates every aspect of the game, and determines how to improve based on that evaluation.

I also spend a good deal of time watching games in which I have no stake in order to learn, probably more than many refs (not all, but many - you guys clearly spend a lot of time watching and improving!). So you aren't offended, I also watch more games than many of my fellow coaches, and more than most players. And I observe all aspects of the game, including how it is officiated. You learn more from watching officials in games where you don't care what the calls are than in games where you have a bias.

So it is right to say I have a coach's perspective, but the thoughts you tie to that idea are what matters most. At times, you come off sounding like it is a perspective you can disregard with a "consider the source" type of attitude. And it doesn't really offend me, but it will draw a response when I feel a post challenges my authority or credibility (the latter being far more important, IMO).

[Nevadaref]

After doing some research in the officials manual, if found the following:
223 on page 32 and in 335 on page 63
Reminders: ... Use the proper signal to indicate running the end line privileges are in effect when the clock has been stopped.

Checking the signal chart on page 91, one sees that signal number 18 is the proper one to use.

So, I will now give this signal in these situations, but I still will not verbally announce anything or tell the player that he may run with my voice, unless he specifically asks me. It is only the verbal to which I object.

To answer those who have said that announcing the running priviledge helps both the offense and the defense, I would say that the defense doesn't derive any benefit from this because: if the offensive player runs the defense simply follows him; if it was permitted, no problem; if it wasn't then play is stopped for the violation.
Have you ever seen a defender stand still based on the rationale that he didn't think the offensive player could run on that throw-in? If he does stand it is more likely that he thought the offense could never move on any throw-in. Either way it is poor coaching, not poor officiating.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Apr 16th, 2004 at 09:35 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
After doing some research in the officials manual, if found the following:
223 on page 32 and in 335 on page 63
Reminders: ... Use the proper signal to indicate running the end line privileges are in effect when the clock has been stopped.

Checking the signal chart on page 91, one sees that signal number 18 is the proper one to use.

So, I will now give this signal in these situations, but I still will not verbally announce anything or tell the player that he may run with my voice, unless he specifically asks me. It is only the verbal to which I object.

To answer those who have said that announcing the running priviledge helps both the offense and the defense, I would say that the defense doesn't derive any benefit from this because: if the offensive player runs the defense simply follows him; if it was permitted, no problem; if it wasn't then play is stopped for the violation.
Have you ever seen a defender stand still based on the rationale that he didn't think the offensive player could run on that throw-in? If he does stand it is more likely that he thought the offense could never move on any throw-in. Either way it is poor coaching, not poor officiating.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Apr 16th, 2004 at 09:35 PM]

I'm not motivated enough to go back & check but I don't recall anyone saying to "announce" anything. Having said that, I personally make it a habit to tell the player throwing in whether or not he can run the line and the defender to not violate the line before each throw-in I administer. And I never expect a reply from either BTW.

FWIW.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by footlocker
The player defending the inbounds jumps completely out of bounds while waving his arms. I blow the whistle and notify the table that of the warning for delay. I tell the offending player, "make sure you don't come accross this line (waving my arm up and down), understand?" This kid (about 17) just gives me a stare. I repeat, "Do you understand?" He won't even look at me.

Hmmm. Let me see.... Delay of game warning. Then you have to repeat a question to the player which DELAYS the game further. Guess what? 2nd delay of game. Technical foul. Plain and simple.

[Rickref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
After doing some research in the officials manual, if found the following:
223 on page 32 and in 335 on page 63
Reminders: ... Use the proper signal to indicate running the end line privileges are in effect when the clock has been stopped.

Checking the signal chart on page 91, one sees that signal number 18 is the proper one to use.

So, I will now give this signal in these situations, but I still will not verbally announce anything or tell the player that he may run with my voice, unless he specifically asks me. It is only the verbal to which I object.

To answer those who have said that announcing the running priviledge helps both the offense and the defense, I would say that the defense doesn't derive any benefit from this because: if the offensive player runs the defense simply follows him; if it was permitted, no problem; if it wasn't then play is stopped for the violation.
Have you ever seen a defender stand still based on the rationale that he didn't think the offensive player could run on that throw-in? If he does stand it is more likely that he thought the offense could never move on any throw-in. Either way it is poor coaching, not poor officiating.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Apr 16th, 2004 at 09:35 PM]

Nevadaref, I can think of two instances where it would be an advantage for the defense to know if the basline can be ran. I've seen plays where the offense will set a screen on the endline and the inbouder will run the baseline in hopes that the defender will run the screener over. I've also seen a play where a second offensive player will go behind the endline and a pass will be made along the endline out of bounds, legal only when the baseline is allowed to be run. In this instance the defender of player 2 stepping out of bounds reached across the plane defending the pass and recieved a T for it. If the defense is aware that the endline can be ran, they could mentally prepare for such situations.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by TravelinMan
Hmmm. Let me see.... Delay of game warning. Then you have to repeat a question to the player which DELAYS the game further. Guess what? 2nd delay of game. Technical foul. Plain and simple.

Hmmmm. Let me see. . . no.