Player ignores ref

[Rickref]

you are there to make the call. If it is a 9 year old game, the question you asked has merit - they are just learning the game. For a HS varsity age player, make your calls and move on - you aren't their coach, you aren't there to teach them.
Hawks Coach SO if a varsity player asks me about a rule, I simply reply go ask your coach, its his job to know the rules. IMHO that is one of the mindsets that coaches have that needs to change. Yes coaches have a tremendous responsibilty of teaching a player and role modeling. However the concept of "Mr. Official don't you talk to my player I'm his coach" sends a terrible message. We have things on the court that occur that we need to deal with. Respect the fact that that happens. As an official we need to communicate with the players and build positive relationships with them. We don't need to teach them X'x and O's by any means. But rules and situations that allow the game to move better and prevent situations from occuring needs to be communicated. Officals also need to be positive role models for players. The above attitude prepetuates the player/coach against the offfical attitude. Your players have certain officials they like/dislike why? Calling a good fair game in their eyes certainally helps, but I'll bet officials who communicate with them and help them though situations, instead of just calling the game also leads to a more positive relationship

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref


2. While I always know whether the player can run the end line or not, I only tell them if they ask me. I believe that it is the coach's job to teach their players the rules of the game, not mine. I just make the calls.

If you're coming out of a dead ball situaton, especially a time out, this is very bad advice. Verbally tell the player and strongly signal either spot or endline.

[Hawks Coach]

JR - that's precisely how it should be handled. This area is a pet peeve of mine, because so many refs have their own personal way of dealing with it. Do it by the book, and make the first warning an official warning - coach and table informed, player informed as a courtesy, and just how you said you do it.

[Adam]

Interesting, whenever I've called this, I've assumed the players know what I called. Only when the coach has asked me to tell the players have I done so.

[Adam]

Rickref,
Coach never said we can't answer questions to his players. I would agree that we shouldn't be volunteering rules interpretations or clinics during a game, however. While I get a little miffed by the attitude I get from players, I'd never consider taking action against a kid for (quite probably) biting his tongue.
While the first "do you understand" was likely reflexive, the second was unnecessary. I guarantee he'll understand if you have to whack him on the ensuing throwin.
Footlocker, you asked how to handle it differently. Besides a T, I don't see any tools available for you, and I definitely think that's over and beyond reasonable (as you apparently do as well). I think you handled it well.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[BI am old school. I was taught to show respect to my elders and that included sports officials. My wife and I expect our sons to do the same. Over the last twenty years that has been a steady decline in civilized behavior and just because there has been a decline in civilized behavior is not reason to tolerate uncivilized behavior. [/B]

Here here.

I am glad that my sister, almost 12 years younger than I am, was brought up properly and knows how to treat people. There is a discerning growing lack of respect amongst the public.

[footlocker]

HawksCoach- you’re right about one thing (not which perspective I view things from)- I should have pointed out the plane and handed the ball without asking him if he understood. I admitted that in the original post. "Turn the page coach." Sometimes as officials, we are in a situation to talk to players. And coaches should encourage players to be respectful in those situations. Period. I chose to do nothing and get the ball in play. If you want to get worked up as a coach and see this as the referee’s problem then, as previously stated, you’re part of the problem and not the solution. If the kid was so worked up internally that he bit his lip to keep from being inappropriate- then good for him.

You were in the military right? Imagine if your supervisor asked you a direct question. You just stare at him with your jaw clenched and don’t answer because you didn’t like that he asked you if you knew something that you did know. He repeats it and you pull the same silent reply. If he is irked, it’s probably his failure to see things from your perspective.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I am simply saying that refs shouldn't be looking to T a player for having an attitude they don't like when they make a call.

I didn’t T him and wouldn’t. Where are you getting this looking business? If I were looking for a T, believe me, he would have had it.

[footlocker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Footlocker, you asked how to handle it differently. Besides a T, I don't see any tools available for you, and I definitely think that's over and beyond reasonable (as you apparently do as well). I think you handled it well.

Yeah, thanks. I did nothing because I felt that anything I would have done would only draw more attention to me than the player and his attitude. Unwanted attention at that. My choosing to get on with the game without doing something seemed to condone it and, I didn't want any further problems because I just allowed the kid to disrespect me.

The lesson here is clear. Get the ball in play and no questions unless absolutely necessary.

[Adam]

I understand your dilemma. My feeling is that they can silently disrespect me all they want. They're 15-18, they're going to do that. As long as they don't disobey direct requests such as "throw me the ball, 21," or "turn around so I can see your number," I much prefer silence to most of the alternatives.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by footlocker

You were in the military right? Imagine if your supervisor asked you a direct question. You just stare at him with your jaw clenched and don’t answer because you didn’t like that he asked you if you knew something that you did know. He repeats it and you pull the same silent reply. If he is irked, it’s probably his failure to see things from your perspective.

I should probably just keep my mouth shut but are you telling us that you consider YOUR relationship with a basketball player the same as the relationship between a soldier and his superior??

[Hawks Coach]

Thank you Dan. My thoughts exactly. Soldier - superior relationship is not the same as the ref - player relationship. Also, ref-player relationship is not the same as a coach-player relationship.

As for Rick, as was stated above, you can answer questions from players. where I think a line was crossed is a ref to me appears to be lecturing or talking down to a HS age player. That should not be done in this circumstance.

As for my comments about the player. Lets take this player, who has issues with attitude. Yesterday he played a game, said something to a ref using his attitude, and he got Td. His coach (me) says don't talk to refs - see what happens? Today you start in on him with what he takes as an insult - this "do you understand" line of reasoning. He is clearly po'd and knows from experience that he is best off not saying anything. Is he wrong?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
"turn around so I can see your number,"

I hate having to ask this . . .

[ryan330i]

This is a fascinating forum. I found this site today looking online for rules for the basketball driveway game of 21, because the group of guys I play with all come from different regions and we all knew different rules! I am neither coach or referee, but was a basketball player up to freshman junior-varsity level.

Anyway, getting to the point here, I definitely feel like that player’s lack of response was acceptable and did not rob the referee of any respect he deserves.

As was pointed out, the relationship between player and referee at that level is not like a parent and child, superior officer and subordinate, or even coach and player. The relationship and respect given and taken between player and referee, to me, is MUCH closer to that of opposing players: Professional respect within the bounds of the rules of the game, but nothing more, especially if the player is loosing horribly. And with my perspective comes the corollary: The referee should equally respect the players, which I don’t feel was completely done here.

I feel like in this particular situation if the referee was trying to help the player, the respectful and helpful thing for the referee to do would be to have explained his call, “I issued the delay of game warning for you crossing the inbound line” and leave it at that.

When you speak to him as a command “Make sure you don’t come across this line” and then follow that with a patronizing, “understand?”, and then the final “Do you understand?”, to me instantly tells the player a few things: 1)You don’t respect him and in fact, 2) you expect his deference to you as something more like an parent/coach/superior officer and perhaps even 3) you are angry you aren’t getting it.

Overall, I think there are a dozen nuanced ways a player could respond “yes, I understand” and probably only one of those would have NOT resulted in a technical, given his state of mind.

I agree with the coach who recommended his players not engage with the referee in tense situations like that.

As a coach, if my player did respond rudely and was T'd, I'd not only get on him, but let the referee have it for what would appear to me as baiting him into a response.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Since Daryl and I are leaving for Hartford, CT, on Friday morning to officiate in the Starters Girls' Spring Classic, I thought that I should respond again before I leave.


Mick stated: "Many socio-economic-environmental factors may come into play. The kid may know better; perhaps he may not. The kid may have been taught to react better; perhaps, he was not."

I refuse to accept Mick's conclusion. The player in the original post is 17. This young man does know what are good manners. Just ten days after the Columbine shootings, I was substitute teaching an 8th grade math class at East Toledo Jr. H.S. (a jr. H.S. in the Toledo Public School District). We live in the TPS Dist. and my wife and I are very active within the school dist. including sitting on many committees, so I have a very good insight into our school district. East Toledo Jr. H.S. has a reputation as being the worst jr. H.S. in the district for student behavior and I can tell you that its students are some of the worst behaving students in the school district. And there is a very good reason for that. The school principal refuses to demand appropriate behavior from her students. A case in point: On the next-to-last day of my assignment, a student made a death threat against me. This student was instantly removed from the building and was eventually suspended from school for the rest of the school year (big deal, he got a 4 mon. summer vacation instead of a 3 mon. vacation and was still promoted to the 9th grade). The principal was very upset about the situation, but not because the student made a death threat against me, but because after telling him to put a non-school book away three times, but because I took the book away after he refused to follow my instructions to put the book away. Her excuse was that she does not require her students to exhibit good behavior because they have not been taught good manners at home. I was speechless that a school administer would make such a statement to a tax paying, registered voter parent of two students in the school district, but this is the type of incompetent administrators that we have to put up with in some of our schools. She made these statements in a hearing that she called because she wrote me up because she felt that I provoked the student by taking the book from him.

There is no excuses for bad behavior. I will not tolerate foul language the players in the men's and women's college games I officiate. Why? The fact that a person is attending college means that he/she is a situation that requires civilized behavior and the fact that they are athletes does not give them a reason to conduct themselves at a lower level than the non-athlete members of the student body. I only have to say "sugar" once after hearing somebody say "sh#t" and the players get the idea that I expect a high level of behavior from them. I have never had a player complain to me about my behavior requirments. Many times the player apologizes and agrees with me that foul language has no place in a college basketball game.

If a person conducts him/herself in a civilized manner and accepts nothing less than civilized behavior from other people, then other people will get the idea and act accordingly.

Well it is getting late and I have a lot to do tomorrow (actually later today), so everybody have a good weekend. See you all Tuesday morning.

MTD, Sr.

[canuckrefguy]

Mark...

(1) Your Jr. High story is good, but as for applying it to the ball game, it's a bit of a stretch.

(2) At the varsity level and beyond, the less we have to say to the players and coaches the better. HC, JR, and Dan are right - tell him to watch the plane, and leave it. Less is more.

(3) How can you T the kid when it was YOU who initiated what could easily have been construed as a confrontational remark - HC is right, asking a player "do you understand" is basically asking him "I think you're stupid".

(4) A "T" is supposed to make the game better. There is no way you will ever convince me a T here would have made things better. All you would have done is make yourself look like a pompous, arrogant, jackDexter (sorry Mark, you've started a trend!)

I agree with everything you said about expecting a standard of behaviour from kids. But if you look objectively, without your biases, you will see that this situation is NOT the same thing.

Good luck this weekend!