Tennessee-Baylor ending

[Damian]

I had a similar thing happen to a crew I was on. As an Official, we all knew that the clock was about out. The offense throws up a shot and misses. There is a scramble and the offensive player gets control and is about to put the ball back up. A defensive players rushes directly into him(her) to stop the attempt. FOUL.

The ref doesn't know that there is not enough time to get the second shot off. Only that the ball is live. It is only after the whistle that we see that there is only .3 seconds left.

Tough call to make and live through, but the right call.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Damian
I had a similar thing happen to a crew I was on. As an Official, we all knew that the clock was about out. The offense throws up a shot and misses. There is a scramble and the offensive player gets control and is about to put the ball back up. A defensive players rushes directly into him(her) to stop the attempt. FOUL.

The ref doesn't know that there is not enough time to get the second shot off. Only that the ball is live. It is only after the whistle that we see that there is only .3 seconds left.

Tough call to make and live through, but the right call.

.3 is totally insignificant in this situation. What about this call made it tough to live through?

[BOBBYMO]

I just checked the tape and he was not the one who administered the last free throw. And when the ball went OOB with 31 secs on the clock they didn't switch either. So I am not sure when you are talking about or maybe I don't fully understand.

My bad Smoref. I thought it was and still think it is the same official and I have seen it a few times again. But I have been wrong before.

[BoomerSooner]

It seems there is alot of focus on the .3 seconds left in the game issue that has me wondering if some people have the wrong interpretation of the rule. I know many of you know the rule, but I just think are misapplying it in this case. If you stop the clock and there are .3 or less, we all know that you cannot count any FG try, but you can a tap. However this is only when the ball is dead. You cannot at any time assume that a shot could not have been attempted (try or tap) if the ball is live/clock is running. Example: Live ball/clock running. If A1 were pass to A2 and A2 made the catch with .2 seconds on the clock, no matter how improbable if A2 shoots prior to the horn sounding (in the officials judgement) the shot is good. Even if you go to the replay (which would likely happen at the college level) and A2 caught the ball with .000003 seconds and shot it prior to the horn (assuming the clock is running/live ball & you have a clock that reads that far out) you have to count it. So based on the fact that the clock was running when the foul occured, btw I do think it was a great call, you have to assume the possibility of getting a shot off is there. So for everybody that is saying she couldn't have even got a shot off based on the .3 second rule, your argument is flawed. As for "letting the players decide the game", they did the Tennessee player got in great position to rebound a missed shot and the Baylor player got into a great position to commit a foul. If there had been enough time for Baylor to get another possesion, nobody would be complaining. It would have just been up to Baylor to go down and score.

[Jimgolf]

From the replay, it looks like the Baylor player ran from out-of-bounds right into Tenn player, knocking her down. How is this incidental contact that doesn't confer an advantage?

I think if there is displacement there is a foul, no matter how much time is on the clock. Wasn't this one of the points of emphasis last year?

For those who think this is a lousy way to end a game, the players should listen to their coaches, who are shouting "don't foul", "don't foul" the whole time, and the crowd, who is counting down the seconds. There was no reason for the Baylor player to be running after the loose ball like that with so little time on the clock and Tennessee in the bonus.

Let the players decide the game? They did. One player committed a foul, and the other player made the free throws.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jesse James
Advantage/disadvantage?

The foul was called with .2 left, and the Tennessee player nowhere near a shooting motion. By study, it takes over .3 to release a shot. How was the Tennessee player disadvantaged when she couldn't possibly have scored a field goal anyway?

Please tell me exactly how the official was supposed to know that there was only .2 left.

Is this a foul at the 15 minute mark? Yes.

Then it's a foul with .2 left.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Jesse James
Advantage/disadvantage?

The foul was called with .2 left, and the Tennessee player nowhere near a shooting motion. By study, it takes over .3 to release a shot. How was the Tennessee player disadvantaged when she couldn't possibly have scored a field goal anyway?

In layman's terms, when someone knocks the crap out of you, you are put at a disadvantage, kinda like in boxing.

[iamaref]

Maybe if he sucks on his whistle just a bit... and sees the "whole play"... he doesn't call that foul.

Although I think it was not a patient whistle... it was in fact a foul.. cuz the tenn player could have made a play from there... and the baylor player didn't give that opportunity.

As for the referee, who has the overall power to view the replay. He or she (I don't know who it was). COULD have made a real veteran-like decision and put the game into overtime. NOT BECAUSE the call was wrong (cuz it was right). BUT, because the overall circumstances of the situation... would tell a veteran that you can say the foul happened at .2 but, the whistle happened "after" the horn. Overtime.. no argument likely from Summit or the Baylor coach.

RIGHT ?

Remember.. the Baylor coach wanted over the back on the initial play.. which was probably there too.

Overtime best choice i thought.. call was right though.

[Schradog]

I disagree with the justification in comparing that foul occurring at .2 is the same as if it happened at the 15 minute mark. I saw a play in last night's Uconn game that the Huskies were clearly dominating. A Penn State player committed an obvious charge, but it wasn't called because the team was getting whipped as it was. No need to call that charge...good no call. They were already skewered...don't break the stick off! When the ball is loose as in the Baylor game, players should be allowed to go for the ball--and as an official, you need to recognize that. Sure the foul was called, but I feel if whoever called that foul could have delayed and watched the play finish developing, the foul wouldn't have been called--at least before time expired. Plus...recognize that Baylor JUST threw the ball away, and Tennessee JUST blew and open layup and stay patient on the whistle unless there is a train wreck. This wasn't a train wreck.

[johnSandlin]

Well, then somebody please define "train wreck" for me, because I have not a clue anymore(being sarcastic here) because of all the officiating dictionaries we have imputting on this topic.

I agree with Jurassic Referee's comments all the way through this post, and also the jurisdiction comments as well about if it is a foul at the 15 minute mark, it is a foul at the .2 second mark.

A foul is a foul, plain and simple. If you choose to call it or not to call it, you are telling the coaches and players you saw the whole play and you can offer an explanation for you making call or not making a call.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by iamaref
Maybe if he sucks on his whistle just a bit... and sees the "whole play"... he doesn't call that foul.

Although I think it was not a patient whistle... it was in fact a foul.. cuz the tenn player could have made a play from there... and the baylor player didn't give that opportunity.

As for the referee, who has the overall power to view the replay. He or she (I don't know who it was). COULD have made a real veteran-like decision and put the game into overtime. NOT BECAUSE the call was wrong (cuz it was right). BUT, because the overall circumstances of the situation... would tell a veteran that you can say the foul happened at .2 but, the whistle happened "after" the horn. Overtime.. no argument likely from Summit or the Baylor coach.

RIGHT ?

Remember.. the Baylor coach wanted over the back on the initial play.. which was probably there too.

Overtime best choice i thought.. call was right though.

So, you admit that the call was correct but you say that it shouldn't have been made. That makes no sense whatsoever.

"Yes Coach Summitt, that was a foul but we've decided we're going to ignore that it happened and just play OT." Then you're going to eject her because she's going to make Rick Barnes look like a choir boy.

Originally posted by Schradog
I disagree with the justification in comparing that foul occurring at .2 is the same as if it happened at the 15 minute mark. I saw a play in last night's Uconn game that the Huskies were clearly dominating. A Penn State player committed an obvious charge, but it wasn't called because the team was getting whipped as it was. No need to call that charge...good no call. They were already skewered...don't break the stick off!

That has nothing to do with the point I was making. If the contact is a situation you would call as a foul with 15 minutes remaining, then it should be a foul in the last 10 seconds as well.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Apr 8th, 2004 at 08:22 PM]

[iamaref]

BktBallRef...

Missed my point by just a little bit.

I'm saying that.. it WAS a foul. HOWEVER, the foul does not stop the game.. the whistle does. Therefore, YES, it was a foul. but, NO, it did not have to be penalized cuz the whistle occurred after the "offical" end of regulation. In other words... the Crew Chief in the situation had some leeway.. in that likely the video would not show whent the actual whistle happened.

I just thought of this though.

Are they not using the precision timing system ? If so, the whistle should stop the clock at the "EXACT" instant that the whistle is blown. Therefore, the clock had to have expired.. cuz the whistle would have stopped it.. before the horn and time had run off.

Isn't this EXACT situation.. what the precision timing system is there for ?? Whistle foul and time.. near end of game situations.

I may be wrong.. but, i don't think i am correct. Someone set me straight if I am not. And please don't make stuff up. SMILE and a wink.

[Schradog]

You know Bball ref...I just hopped on this board yesterday for the first time because I thought it would stimulate the officiating side of my brain during the off season. But it's clear that your banter has no room for discourse, and is why officials are labeled with gargantuan size ego. Forget the Baylor play...if you are "eternally" grateful to not have to referee with someone that MAY make a mistake, or set aside a rule somewhere, or God forbid disagree with you...then that sure limits the possibilities of your crewmates.
Lighten up.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by iamaref



I may be wrong.. but, i don't think i am correct.

ok who let Yogi Berra into the discussion?? ...whether you agree with the call or not, I think going to the replay and playing the ole "well we will just say it occured after the whistle" game is a can of worms that will do no one any good at all...the replay shows quite obviously the contact occured before the time expired, therefore they free throws need to be shot.

[BOBBYMO]

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Originally posted by johnSandlin
I know what official made the call, but I am not going to put the name of the official on this forum out of respect to that official.


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Why doesn't Teddy Valentine get the same respect?


Last night on the Late ESPN sports center the said the officlas name.