Tennessee-Baylor ending - Page 3

BOBBYMO · #31 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 06:23pm

I still have no clue after watching so many replays what official actually made the call. Lead, trail or was it from across the court from the center? The C may have had the open look on this play. All of the replays that I have seen have none of the officials in the picture so I am unsure what possition actually made the call.I agree that the call was obvious enough to be made in the 1st 1/2..... So why not now?

caraf...... May I ask what your refereeing background is? I am not doubting you...... Just curious.

smoref · #32 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 06:35pm

The call was made by the lead official. The player from Baylor that was called for the foul, was next to him OOB and the went running for the rebound and hit the Tenn player.

aucella · #33 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 06:45pm

I agree with one very important point the clock stops when the official raises his or her arm and blows the whistle. Not when the contact appears to have occured in the video. They should be listening to hear if the whistle came before the horn.

BOBBYMO · #34 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 07:02pm

Advantage/disadvantage??????

The Tennesee player was knocked to the ground when she was in position to get the rebound and had time to shoot quickly? I say thats Advantage/disadvantage.

I will agre with the person that said that the player came from out of bounds but do you know 100% that it was the lead that made the call as from every single replay that I have seen... none of the officials were in the picture of the replay.

smoref · #35 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 07:05pm

I know 100% that the call came from the lead

Jurassic Referee · #36 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 07:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by caref

[/B]

Please don't say "we,as officials...". That is a very inaccurate statement. it's OK to say "it is my opinion...", but don't try to intimate that any other official might agree with you. You're speaking for yourself only. Hell, we're not even sure that you are an official. You sure sound like one of the many fanboys that have been infesting this forum lately.

If you are an official, which I'm starting to doubt, again please back up your original statements about the game being poorly and inconsistently officiated by giving your reasons for making those statements. Just saying that it is "your opinion" doesn't cut it here. Anybody can come here and dump on the officials without giving any real reasons why the officials were supposed to be bad.

JRutledge · #37 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 07:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by caref
It's not Watergate. I will go out on a limb and say that someone is telling that officials today that he probably should ahve held his whistle. Heck, he was probably sayng the saem hing last night in the locker room. It was an ugly end to a great game. We can go round and round about making hat call with 15 minutes to go or in the first half, but when have you ever seen such a call in such a big game. A few bodies banging over a loose ball as time expires happens all the time. If I make that call and I hear the buzzer as I am sounding my whistle I waive it off and we go overtime. That game deserved overtime for everything that is great about the game. If it is a foul that changes the complexion of the play call it. If the players was foulded on the layup that she missed call it, but not the call that was made.

Advantage/disadvantage.

I will stick by my guns and say it was the wrong call at the wrong time and ruined what was otherwise a great game. I normally don't watch the woman much, but I was glued to my TV set and then to have that happen was awful.

By the wasy I didn't care who won as I said I don't watch the woman much, but

The better question is why are fans so stupid. We asked you to come up with some reasoning, and all you can say is "it was just bad." Well if you were in college and writing a research paper on this topic, you would have to coorberate your information. All JR has asked is for you to back up your point of view. Most of us are officials, we know what happens in games on a regular basis. We know the rules and know what are not rules, like "over the back" which most of the public actually thinks is a foul.

For the record, I did not see the game either. I only saw the replay of the final seconds and I understand the rule in place because I have done some college ball. Not during a media game, but I to have some working knowledge of those "media game" rules where replay is present. And the officials handled it correct. ESPN cannot even get when the foul was called correct. They still have been telling the public that they called the foul by looking at the video tape. We just want you to back some of your information up. If you cannot do that, you just prove to us why the general public is stupid when it comes to these issues.

Peace

BOBBYMO · #38 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 08:23pm

Smoref, You said you know 100 % that the lead made the call.
The replay tonight showed that the lead on that play was also the lead administering the last 2 free throws. I know that there was a long delay after the foul and then the time out; but do you then think he switched spots to get away from the coaches? If that is the case why didn't he go to the C ? Just a question.

Mark Dexter · #39 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 08:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by caref
If I make that call and I hear the buzzer as I am sounding my whistle I waive it off and we go overtime.
[. . .]
If it is a foul that changes the complexion of the play call it. If the players was foulded on the layup that she missed call it, but not the call that was made.
[. . .]
Advantage/disadvantage.

So which one is it?

Forget the question of whether or not it's a foul. Assume the contact is clearly a foul.

If you have a foul clearly before the buzzer, but wave it off because the score is tied, you are putting the fouled team at a HUGE disadvantage, you are giving all refs a bad name, and you need to get some chutzpah.

caref · #40 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 09:10pm

I am an official at teh high school varsity level, work the playoffs, do roughly 80 to 90 games a high school season and several hundred others the rest of the year to work on my skills. I ahve also coaches and guess what? I am a fan of the game too. I didn't like what I saw last night. It left a bad taste in my mouth as it did many others.

Does anyone on this board ever pass on something because it had no effect on the game?

We do it all the time or else games would be foul shooting contests instead of basketball games.

Now what if no call had been made?

Would anyone have been upset?

I doubt it. The game would have gone into overtime and the best team last night would have won.

Did the contact cause Tennessee a chance to win the game with a shot. With :02 second and the ball in the air after the tip by the Baylor player?

I don't believe so. Again my opinion based on waht I saw.

I agree that you can disagree.

The best call sometimes is no call at all and I will stick by that philosphy. It has done me well so far. There is a saying "let the players decide the game in the waning seconds. I certainly agree with that.

It really seems to be that way in the mens game. Close game, clock ticking down, physical play and no whistles.

The call last night did not need to be made. It was and since we have video replay to check the officials had to do what they did, but I bet they didn't like it either.

JustAFan · #41 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 09:44pm

Because we see the tv commentators as the 'voice of authority'. Many of us are up in arms about this whole thing because apparently Reese Davis, Nell Fortner and Stacey Dales-Schuman went on a rant after the game and said that it simply was NOT a foul and should never have been called in the first place. According to them it was just 'incidental contact' occurring during a scramble after a loose ball, and they were demanding to let the players decide the outcome.

Well, I was at the game, and it sure looked like a foul to me. And as soon as I saw the crew chief heading for the table I thought to myself, 'Oh crap, I bet he's going to have to put some time back on the clock.' I didn't hear what the tv folks were saying so I didn't go berserk. Sure, it was a lousy way for a game to end. But sometimes games have lousy endings. I was disappointed too because I was rooting for Baylor to pull off the Upset of the Century. But when a player charges into her opponent like that, well, that's a no-no and I really don't think it matters when it happens. I'm sure that the Baylor player didn't intend to do it, but that's beside the point. Most of the fans around me were of the same opinion, that it was just a rotten piece of luck. In our minds, the players had decided the outcome of the game. Baylor had lots of chances to win but they let Tennessee get back into the game.

But we were not listening to the 'experts' in the ESPN studio. Would we have believed them if we had heard their comments? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not.

In any case, that's one of the primary reasons that we are so stupid.

Jurassic Referee · #42 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 09:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by caref
I am a fan of the game too. I didn't like what I saw last night. It left a bad taste in my mouth as it did many others.

Yup, that says it all right there. Another fanboy. Tell me, fanboy, if you really are a referee, why won't you answer a few simple questions? Again, you made the statement that the officiating in the game was poor and inconsistent. Using your vast expertise and experience as an official, could you now give us the specific examples that will back up your claim. Simply tell us which calls they screwed up and why they screwed them up, and also which calls that they made that weren't consistent with other calls that they made. Please enlighten us.

smoref · #43 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 11:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BOBBYMO
Smoref, You said you know 100 % that the lead made the call.
The replay tonight showed that the lead on that play was also the lead administering the last 2 free throws. I know that there was a long delay after the foul and then the time out; but do you then think he switched spots to get away from the coaches? If that is the case why didn't he go to the C ? Just a question.

I just checked the tape and he was not the one who administered the last free throw. And when the ball went OOB with 31 secs on the clock they didn't switch either. So I am not sure when you are talking about or maybe I don't fully understand.

Jesse James · #44 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 11:22pm

Advantage/disadvantage?

The foul was called with .2 left, and the Tennessee player nowhere near a shooting motion. By study, it takes over .3 to release a shot. How was the Tennessee player disadvantaged when she couldn't possibly have scored a field goal anyway?

BktBallRef · #45 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 29, 2004, 11:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by aucella
I agree with one very important point the clock stops when the official raises his or her arm and blows the whistle. Not when the contact appears to have occured in the video. They should be listening to hear if the whistle came before the horn.

When the whistle sounds has absolutely nothing to do with when the foul occurs.

If the foul occurred before the horn sounded, then it's a foul, no matter when the whistle blew, and the FTs must be shot.

The only thing the whistle will determine is if time is put back on the clock.