Advantage/Disadvantage talk is making me nervous

[Malcolm Tucker]

John

It sounds like you did good. Remember if a coach asks you say the defence did nothing wrong and the offence caused all the contact.

Many coaches will say "So What" because the do not understand the rights of the players which are basically if not the same. Who is responsible for contact is the issue.

The offensive player cannot do what he or she likes and expect a call.

We do not referee "UGLY". We referee "basketball"

Malcolm

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef

Which leads me to last night:

Had a sophmore boys game, conference rivals. Great game, I worked with a guy who's been doing this for 34 years but has retired from doing varsity.

Tie game with 8 secs left ... B1 doesn't bite, he stays on the ground with arms up. A1 trys a disperate shot, and throws himself into B1 but doesn't displace B1 (in fact there wasn't much contact, but it looked awkward), B1 deflects the ball and the buzzer goes off. I called nothing, it happened in my primary....

...In the locker room afterward my partner lets me have it for not calling the foul. I told him what I saw and why I didn't blow the whistle. He says he didn't see it but out of the corner of his eye but what he did see looked ugly. My response was that I've been told that just because it looked ugly doesn't mean it was a foul. The 3 varstiy guys who were there for the next game agreed with me, but they didn't see the play.

Even though we talked about it for a half hour after the game, I'm still not convinced he is right. During the game he made two calls on blocked shots that from my vantage point at trail looked like clean blocks, even though they looked bad, I didnt' see any contact between the players, just a very hard block of the ball.

Still learning, guess I always will be.

You were right in your non-call. An experienced ref doesn't always equal a wise or correct ref. Sounds like he didn't feel like doing OT. No way I EVER reward a shooter for jumping into a vertical and stationary defender.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef

.... I worked with a guy who's been doing this for 34 years but has retired from doing varsity.


.... my partner lets me have it for not calling the foul. He says he didn't see it .............

The guy lets you have it for not calling a foul that he didn't see? Sounds like the retirement thing could stand to spread a little deeper.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
Well, I seem to be in the minority here so I'm going to discuss this with all the officials I work with around here and talk with the varsity guys in between games. See what the prevailing opinion is in these parts.

I did this with the '3 second' thingy after reading and participating in that thread last week. 'All' of the varsity guys I talked with about the 3 second violation agreed that this is something one most aviod calling if you can. Game manage it they said and gave me some pionters.

Which leads me to last night:

Had a sophmore boys game, conference rivals. Great game, I worked with a guy who's been doing this for 34 years but has retired from doing varsity.

Tie game with 8 secs left (home team was up by 9 before they went into a stall offense with 2 minutes to play) home team is inbounding the ball. They get it in and make a couple of passes and as time is running out A1 shot fakes and B1 doesn't bite, he stays on the ground with arms up. A1 trys a disperate shot, and throws himself into B1 but doesn't displace B1 (in fact there wasn't much contact, but it looked awkward), B1 deflects the ball and the buzzer goes off. I called nothing, it happened in my primary. Of course the home crowd and coach loved me for holding my whistle. hehe.

Anyway, home team losses in OT. In the locker room afterward my partner lets me have it for not calling the foul. I told him what I saw and why I didn't blow the whistle. He says he didn't see it but out of the corner of his eye but what he did see looked ugly. My response was that I've been told that just because it looked ugly doesn't mean it was a foul. The 3 varstiy guys who were there for the next game agreed with me, but they didn't see the play.

Even though we talked about it for a half hour after the game, I'm still not convinced he is right. During the game he made two calls on blocked shots that from my vantage point at trail looked like clean blocks, even though they looked bad, I didnt' see any contact between the players, just a very hard block of the ball.

Still learning, guess I always will be.

Like I said never reward bad defense by taking away the easy score,and NEVER EVER penalize good defense.It sounds like you held your whistle ,saw the play,and made the right decision.

Some officials tend to go out of their way to "protect" the shooter.That should mean seeing them return to the floor without illegal contact,but some will call ANY contact a foul on the defense.

Along those same lines,early in a game if you have a close
play for a block/charge,it is a charge.You want the defense to keep playing the right way,if you have a couple of close ones early that are blocking fouls they will stop playing with their feet and start slapping at the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra

[/B]

Along those same lines,early in a game if you have a close
play for a block/charge,it is a charge.You want the defense to keep playing the right way,if you have a couple of close ones early that are blocking fouls they will stop playing with their feet and start slapping at the ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job!

[Ballen]

Originally posted by davidw
Judgement, Judgement, Judgement.

Every case should be about Judgement. And every case/situation is taken in context. Context of that total play, the play before it, the last time up or down the court and the entire game. What is called at one point and in one game may indeed be called something different at another point or in another game.

For example: I may pass on some slight contact that IMO, did not affect the play, but at another time or game, call it because IMO, I noticed players' level of frustration beginning to rise and IMO, I need to 'rein it in'--now I 'gotta call this one'. I try and let the players establish the tempo. If they do that and we gain a flow to the game, that is what we are all seeking. If they don't then they have turned it over to us, now we have to. I believe the top officials are able to distinguish early on when those times are and are able to make adjustments timely (ie. before things even get close to getting out of control).

That, IMO, is one of the keys that sets top officials apart from those who are not: Judgement, judgement, judgement!

I want to be a top official.... I want to have good judgment.... I want feed back from observers about my judgment and that is sometimes difficult to get. I've asked numerous varsity observers about my judgment in a game they just witnessed part of.... they say that they never question a call and instead will nit pick mechanics.
They say my mechanics are sound and my presence strong and my demeanor is calm. Things like "move your feet, not your eyes" when getting the ball and setting up for a throw in. OK, thanks, I'm coachable so now help me hone my judgment.

I'll keep reading this forum and be self-correcting.

Like the other night I had A1 receive a throw in BC. He chopped is feet just a bit prior to starting his dribble. He was under pressure and I whistle a travel. Had he not been under defensive pressure I would of had nothing...Good judgment or inconsistent?

[footlocker]

Ballen,

This is a tough one. Forget about that travel call for purposes of this forum. You'll get all kinds of answers. Find some varsity refs that are working high level games (at your state tourney and such), Ak your area assignor next year to have this crew follow your freshman and JV games. The key here is find a crew that is willing to work with your development. Its hard for a varsity official to show up at halftime of your JV game and make comments about your judgement.

Example: You pass on a call that you normally would not because your partner passed on it earlier in the game for the other team. Varsity officials only see the second pass and tell you (because you have asked them beforehand to watch your judgement) that you should not have passed. Well, you knew that. If you try to explain this then it could look like you don't take feedback well.

The best way to get good feedback on judgement is to pick some mentors whose judgement you do like (and is respected by others) and have them watch a whole game.

Good luck.

[TPS2859]

[
[/B][/QUOTE]I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job! [/B][/QUOTE]


I'm so confussed! You'll let a slap on the arm go becouse it "could" be a bucket and we are going to wait and see if it goes in? So it should'nt be a charge unless the bucket goes in too. I do agree, it's not our job to whether the defence is playing properly but by not calling fouls when contact is made (whether the bucket is made or not) you have just taken on the job responsability.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
Well, I seem to be in the minority here so I'm going to discuss this with all the officials I work with around here and talk with the varsity guys in between games. See what the prevailing opinion is in these parts.

I did this with the '3 second' thingy after reading and participating in that thread last week. 'All' of the varsity guys I talked with about the 3 second violation agreed that this is something one most aviod calling if you can. Game manage it they said and gave me some pionters.

Which leads me to last night:

Had a sophmore boys game, conference rivals. Great game, I worked with a guy who's been doing this for 34 years but has retired from doing varsity.

Tie game with 8 secs left (home team was up by 9 before they went into a stall offense with 2 minutes to play) home team is inbounding the ball. They get it in and make a couple of passes and as time is running out A1 shot fakes and B1 doesn't bite, he stays on the ground with arms up. A1 trys a disperate shot, and throws himself into B1 but doesn't displace B1 (in fact there wasn't much contact, but it looked awkward), B1 deflects the ball and the buzzer goes off. I called nothing, it happened in my primary. Of course the home crowd and coach loved me for holding my whistle. hehe.

Anyway, home team losses in OT. In the locker room afterward my partner lets me have it for not calling the foul. I told him what I saw and why I didn't blow the whistle. He says he didn't see it but out of the corner of his eye but what he did see looked ugly. My response was that I've been told that just because it looked ugly doesn't mean it was a foul. The 3 varstiy guys who were there for the next game agreed with me, but they didn't see the play.

Even though we talked about it for a half hour after the game, I'm still not convinced he is right. During the game he made two calls on blocked shots that from my vantage point at trail looked like clean blocks, even though they looked bad, I didnt' see any contact between the players, just a very hard block of the ball.

Still learning, guess I always will be.

Maybe there is a reason he "retired" from varsity basketball

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Along those same lines,early in a game if you have a close
play for a block/charge,it is a charge.You want the defense to keep playing the right way,if you have a couple of close ones early that are blocking fouls they will stop playing with their feet and start slapping at the ball.

[/B]

I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job! [/B][/QUOTE]

I said,"CLOSE," as in it could go either way.It is entirely are job to influence how the game is played,that is WHY they have officials.

We influence how it is played EVERY time we blow our whistle.If we call hand checking early they stop hand checking.If we call the knee in the butt and the offense backing out the defense early,we have cleaner post play.
But I guess,you don't think that those calls influence the game,either.

[Mitcher]

blindzebra, perhaps you should have prefaced your comments with "If I have a block/charge and don't know what to call, I'm likely going to call a charge....." It's a little dangerous to just say "If it's close, I'll call it this way." It's either one way or the other.

Having said that, when we miss the play and must come up with a call......

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mitcher
blindzebra, perhaps you should have prefaced your comments with "If I have a block/charge and don't know what to call, I'm likely going to call a charge....." It's a little dangerous to just say "If it's close, I'll call it this way." It's either one way or the other.

Having said that, when we miss the play and must come up with a call......

Actually I did preface it.If you look at the original post
I was talking about an official giving more consideration
to the offense and penalizing good defense.I started the paragraph in contention with,"Along those same lines."

I'm not saying I'll call an obvious block a charge,I'm talking bang-bang,nobody will argue either way you call it,
block/charge.Under those conditions I'm promoting good defense.I've watched too many games where a charge could/should have been called early,but was not,and it turned into a foul fest.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TPS2859

I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job! [/B][/QUOTE]


I'm so confussed! You'll let a slap on the arm go becouse it "could" be a bucket and we are going to wait and see if it goes in? So it should'nt be a charge unless the bucket goes in too.
[/B][/QUOTE]I agree. You are confused. I never said anything anywhere in this thread about letting a slap on the arm go on a shot. Are you confusing me with another poster perhaps?

[TPS2859]

Originally posted by JRutledge

]

Not sure what that means. Because fouls are based on how the contact affected the play, not the severity of any contact.
Peace [/B]

Help me here, so if a player is shoved to the floor AWAY from the ball and does'nt affect the lay up in progress, no foul? I dont think so. Back to the original... the pass is not affected by the slap on the arm (hand is part of the ball, if ball is in hand) so you do not call a foul. So player goes up for a lay up and ball goes in, player while still air born gets clocked as player b tries to block shot. No foul, the contact didnt affect the path of the ball, right. I dont think so !

[TPS2859]

And yes JR had you confused with another SORRY !