Advantage/Disadvantage talk is making me nervous

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by RefRx
In Wa state the last couple of years there has been directions from the state office that A/D is not a consideration, that a "foul is a foul". I find that next to impossible to adhere to personally. Maybe to say that a situation does not have a direct impact on a play would be a way to address it. A newer official (and some older ones) never understand the implications of A/D and the game they call usually reflects tat lack of understanding. There are situations where contact may not put a player in a A/D situation but to ignore the contact would not be the wise choice. The contact on the pass mentioned above if ignored because the pass was completed could, and often does, lead to a retalition foul. The problem with the A/D is as Mark indicated in that it was carries over to violation situations by many officials where it does not apply

Maybe I am missing something here, but all contact is not a foul. The term advantage/disadvantage (not in those specific words) comes directly from the rulebook. So a "foul is a foul," you really have to explain that one to me. I agree that what is a foul at one level should be a foul at another level in principle, but that is all it is, principle. If there is contact and does not affect the play, you cannot by rule have a foul. You have to consider advantage disadvantage or you would have 20 fouls in the first 4 minutes of every game.

Peace

[Smitty]

Originally posted by gsf23
I think the A/D is a tricky situation just because it is not going to be understood by a lot of players and fans. The situation about the pass, A1 passes to A2, B1 contacts him on the arm, the pass strays a little but A1 completes the pass, so no call. Now, other end of the floor, B1 passes to B2, A1 contacts B1 on the arm pretty much the same as b1 hit him, the pass stays a little and B2 doesn't catch, foul on A1. Now A1 is going to be thinking, he just did the same thing to me on the other end of the floor and didn't get called for it.

It may be the right thing to do using the A/D principle, but it looks inconsistant.

I like this post. I believe consistency is equally as important as advantage/disadvantage.

[RefRx]

I agree with you that all contact is not a foul. That is what we are getting paid to determine, when and when not to blow the whistle. And that is what I was trying to imply, it is improbable NOT to utilize advantage/disadvantage, effect on the play or whatever to effectively call the game. I do not agree with your statement however that contact that does not affect the play is by rule not a foul.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by blindzebra
I work over 600 games a year from youth to adults,[/B]

How does this happen? I thought I worked a lot! I guess I'm not working hard enough!

Mregor

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by RefRx
I agree with you that all contact is not a foul. That is what we are getting paid to determine, when and when not to blow the whistle. And that is what I was trying to imply, it is improbable NOT to utilize advantage/disadvantage, effect on the play or whatever to effectively call the game. I do not agree with your statement however that contact that does not affect the play is by rule not a foul.

Well considering that incidental contact is described in detail in the rulebooks, not sure how you can just call a foul without considering adv/dis on some level. Again, without looking at 4-27, not sure I would know what a foul is. Especially the passage in Article 3 of that rule.

You are saying just call a foul because it is there. Not sure what a foul is without some of the rulebook guideline. Advantage/disadvantage comes from 4-27-3 and discribing that, "contact that does not hinder the opponents from participating in nomral defensive and offensive movements should be considered incidental." Not sure what you are using as your reference.

Peace

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by zebraman
mplagrow,

Please read the section in the NFHS rulebook called "the intent and purpose of the rules" on page 9.

I'll quote a bit from it: "it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied."

The 3-second rule was put in to prevent players from gaining a big advantage by camping in the key (was it Kareem's dominance or maybe Wilt's dominance that led to that rule?). The rule book gives officials that authority to call it, even if only one foot is in the lane (documentation has to be precise). However, do you really think it is in the "spirit and intent" of the rules to call "3 seconds" on a player who is in the key without gaining any advantage?

IMHO, those officials who call "3-in-the-key" every time they see it are failing to apply that rule intelligently.

Z

Can you be in the low post of the lane without gaining an advantage? I don't think you can, because you must draw the defense's attention, perhaps from a baseline shooter. They have to respect your location.

This is different in soccer, where A/D is in the rulebook. The defense can ignore any player camping by the goal because any pass to him will result in a violation. The defense can NOT rely on an official to be standing there waiting for B1 to catch a pass and blow the whistle, because that ain't the way the game is played.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I don't understand why some of you think that A/D is not applicable, or even not applied, to violations.

I would make an estimate that about 25% (that's one out of every four for the math challenged) of players that receive a pass move or change their pivot foot as part of receiving that pass. Again and again and again... and it is very, very rarely called. The player receives the pass and doesn't move from the general location but commits a violation. He has not gained any advantage or created a disadvantage for the opponents - NO CALL IS MADE and rightly so.

The same is true for the three second violation. I can spend an entire game telling people to get out of the key and counting to 3. I found that as a consequence of doing that, I rarely make any off-ball calls. I also don't make many 3-second calls because I'm trying to talk the players out of the key and trying to avoid that game interrupting call. But the big point is that I lose focus on the important things - the off-ball screens, holds, pushes. These are the things that need to be watched for and called. Those calls make the game go smoother. Now, I try my best to not get sucked into the coach's endless whining and pleading for the 3-second call.

I call the 3-second call based upon advantage/disadvantage.

[ace]

In my area Advantage/Disadvantage (otherwise known as judgement) is encouraged so that one could move up. I see nothing wrong with it. I'm pretty reptillian in that I will call the game in consistency with my partner (unless he/she is just really sucking it up) and some people are by the book and some people tend the call the game mixed like I do. The better games I've seen were called with an equal mix of both adv/dadv and by the book. To me its the only way to call a basketball game.

[Hawks Coach]

Advantage/disadvantage is to some degree used in every sport in which the ball or puck is contested (as opposed to tennis/golf/bowling etc.). It is the only way to efficiently play the game. There is much that goes on that is considered incidental to the game in order to allow a smooth flow. Soccer is much more explicit in its use of ad/disad, but all sports will employ it.

Every well reffed game is in part that way because of effective use of this concept.

[caref]

I rarely call this, but find the times I do or when a post player posting strong does not heed a warning to get out and gains an advantage. The other times or when a player drives, get stuck and does not shoot and teammates gain an advantagious rebounding position.

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mplagrow

Can you be in the low post of the lane without gaining an advantage?


Of course. In fact, if you are posting up and don't receive the ball, you're giving a huge advantage to the defense . The defender guarding you is in the lane preventing a drive to the hoop.

Z

[Tim Roden]

As far as A/D being in the rule book. Yes it is. Read the preamble. As far as three seconds. What advantages does a 5'10 guard get being in the lane of an game with 6'7" forwards when he is near the free throw lane?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mregor

How does this happen? I thought I worked a lot! I guess I'm not working hard enough!

Mregor [/B]

I've actually cut down! 2 years ago I did 114 games in July and 110 in August,I had a total of 5 days off for two months.

[dblref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I've actually cut down! 2 years ago I did 114 games in July and 110 in August,I had a total of 5 days off for two months. [/B]

Unbelievable! You are averaging 3-4 games a day, every day. How do you keep your mental focus? Not to mention the physical wear and tear on your feet/legs. I do a lot of games during the hs season and rec ball other times, but nowhere near this many.

[theboys]

I tread pretty lightly on this site because I know I'm not as rule savvy as most of you, and I know this site isn't really for non-refs, but for those of you who wonder why you don't get more respect, you need to look at the other side of the a/d argument, from a coach's or fan's perspective. Because a/d does have a dark side.

I've been a part of games where "incidental" contact escalates until, basically, the game gets out of control. Incidental contact becomes hard fouls, and by the time the officials start calling fouls, frustration and anger have reached a boiling point. I'm not whining about my team - we've been on the offending side as much as we've been on the offended side.

And, you're right, not all contact is a foul, but if you're not going to be consistent with your calls, or you're not going to establish ahead of time a line beyond which everything is a foul, you set yourself up for failure. If someone slaps a passer on the arm, it shouldn't matter whether the pass was successful or not in your decision to call a foul.

As for the three second call, I think not making the call is a cop-out. If you call it a couple of times, players will wise up. Or, they'll be taken out of the game.

If a player bringing in the ball uncontested picks it up, and just walks with it under his arm to half court, where the defense is waiting in a passive zone, do you call the travel? The ball handler isn't gaining an advantage. But, its a violation, so you call it. Three seconds in the lane is a violation - call it.