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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 05:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rgaudreau
Sorry, but I'm not touching this one. I've got nothing.

Don't go looking for trouble!
I agree that I'm not looking for this, but if it's obvious to the guys in the top row, I'm calling this. Legally, it's a violation. It's also to prevent a bounce pass that is bounced out of bounds. Scenario: A1 throwing under the hoop in his front court. Right next to the lane. A2 is open at the three point line on the other side. Due to good defense and the basketball supports, the only way he can get it there is a bounce pass that bounces 3/4 of the way to A2, OOB. Gotta call it. Illegal advantage.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 05:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by rgaudreau

Does that mean that you think that officials should ignore violations if they think that someone will complain about the call?
This is a question of semantics.

I'm not saying we ignore violations and please don't go putting words in my mouth. However, to call this, is simply asking for trouble.

Now if player is bouncing ball out of bounds, 2, 3 or 10 feet away, it's a different story.

If the kid is backing up against the wall, and the ball has to roll 1, 2, 3 feet to get inbounds.... different story.

I just don't see this ever happening in a game. Not in a situation in which it we'd have to call the violation.

Ren
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 05:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rgaudreau
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by rgaudreau

Does that mean that you think that officials should ignore violations if they think that someone will complain about the call?
This is a question of semantics.

I'm not saying we ignore violations and please don't go putting words in my mouth. However, to call this, is simply asking for trouble.

Now if player is bouncing ball out of bounds, 2, 3 or 10 feet away, it's a different story.

If the kid is backing up against the wall, and the ball has to roll 1, 2, 3 feet to get inbounds.... different story.

I just don't see this ever happening in a game. Not in a situation in which it we'd have to call the violation.

Simply asking for trouble? I completely disagree with your philosophy, Ren.

I've seen this exact play in games several times. It usually occurs in a situation something like this: Team A scores with 4-5 seconds to go to either tie the game, or go up a point or two. Team B calls timeout to set up a play. After the TO, B1, throwing the ball in, rolls the ball up the court to save a coupla seconds on the clock. If the rolled ball on the throw-in touches the floor OOB, it is a violation by rule, is it not? Same as if the player bounce-passed the throw-in into a teammate, and the bounce-pass hit OOB? Now if you don't call the violation, Ren, and B goes down the floor to win the game at the buzzer, who do really think won that game for team B? You, Ren- that's who! You screwed team A completely by ignoring the violation, and thus handing team B that undeserved advantage.

Call it any way that you want to. Imo, however, you are wrong to ignore violations like these.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 06:19pm
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I can't ever remember ever taking heat for an oob violation. What is a coach going to complain about? How dare you follow the rules.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 06:23pm
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Another way to look at it...

What's the difference if the ball strikes first out of bounds right in front of the kid throwing (or rolling) the ball in or if he heaves it and on the fly it touches out of bounds on the side or other end of the court? No difference at all. Violation.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 07:58pm
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At times...

We definitely overlook some violations.

A team that is rolling the ball-in is behind in the score; the clock is stopped; they are trying to conserve time and thereby give themselves more time to score. If they are rolling it, there is no defensive pressure. I've never really considered it, but for me to call a violation on this play, it is going to have to be very obvious. By obvious I mean the player puts the ball on the floor OOB and then pushes it up the floor. I imagine it is possible for a player to roll the ball from 10 feet OOB but it doesn't seem likely. I'm envisioning the thrower to be close to the line, bent over, and gently rolling the ball onto the court... having the ball never touch OOB.

Of course I could lie down on the floor and with my eye next to the floor watch to see exactly where the ball first touched... then the ball would probably be passed half court by the time I got up to call a violation.

A team that is trying to make a throw-in against defensive pressure and that makes a sideways bounce pass that first touches OOB or on the line... I'm going to call that everytime. That is part of what you are watching for and is why you remain standing next to the thrower looking down the line. The poor pass was a result of good defense and deserves to be rewarded.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 09:43pm
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Maybe it comes from having small gyms in my area, but there's usually only 3 - 5 feet of room out of bounds. for a player to roll the ball from out of bounds to inbounds, he would have to literally place it on the floor and push it.

I guess other gyms are different, but that's the way it is in my area.

REn
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 13, 2004, 08:57am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I've seen this exact play in games several times. It usually occurs in a situation something like this: Team A scores with 4-5 seconds to go to either tie the game, or go up a point or two. Team B calls timeout to set up a play. After the TO, B1, throwing the ball in, rolls the ball up the court to save a coupla seconds on the clock. If the rolled ball on the throw-in touches the floor OOB, it is a violation by rule, is it not? Same as if the player bounce-passed the throw-in into a teammate, and the bounce-pass hit OOB?
I serioulsy doubt if I'm looking for this -- there are other, more important things to look for on this play -- is the clock still stopped, is the defense going to challenge the person picking up the ball,




[
Quote:
Now if you don't call the violation, Ren, and B goes down the floor to win the game at the buzzer, who do really think won that game for team B? You, Ren- that's who! You screwed team A completely by ignoring the violation, and thus handing team B that undeserved advantage.
Now you're sounding like a bitter (and wrong) coach.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 13, 2004, 10:00am
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Re: At times...

Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
We definitely overlook some violations.

A team that is rolling the ball-in is behind in the score; the clock is stopped; they are trying to conserve time and thereby give themselves more time to score. If they are rolling it, there is no defensive pressure. I've never really considered it, but for me to call a violation on this play, it is going to have to be very obvious. By obvious I mean the player puts the ball on the floor OOB and then pushes it up the floor. I imagine it is possible for a player to roll the ball from 10 feet OOB but it doesn't seem likely. I'm envisioning the thrower to be close to the line, bent over, and gently rolling the ball onto the court... having the ball never touch OOB.

Of course I could lie down on the floor and with my eye next to the floor watch to see exactly where the ball first touched... then the ball would probably be passed half court by the time I got up to call a violation.

A team that is trying to make a throw-in against defensive pressure and that makes a sideways bounce pass that first touches OOB or on the line... I'm going to call that everytime. That is part of what you are watching for and is why you remain standing next to the thrower looking down the line. The poor pass was a result of good defense and deserves to be rewarded.
Very good examples DTTB, and pretty much the same way I see it. Well put.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 13, 2004, 12:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/B]
Now you're sounding like a bitter (and wrong) coach.
[/B][/QUOTE]Your're partly right. If I lost a game where an official ignored an obvious violation at the end, I certainly would be bitter.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 15, 2004, 01:59am
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In my relatively short time on this forum I have not found myself opposing JR very often; in this sitch, I'm inclined to agree with Tony. Probably going to ignore unles blatant (more than a few inches). "I'll know it when I see it".
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 15, 2004, 04:37am
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ok, I haven't read this thread in a while. I thought it was going to be an open and shut case. Question asked, I cited a rule. What's the debate? Doesn't look like anyone wants to debate the rule.

This is a throw in violation and the throw in ends. I'm not going to make sure the "top row" sees it. Ubsurdly, I apparently have to mention that I am not going to lie down either. However, if it is obvious to me then it is an easy call every time.

By the way, I'm never "looking for trouble." If you don't want a coach yelling at you, volunteer to work the consessions. Officiating is not for you. I'll call the violation, take the heat, and get the ball back in play. Chances are, I'm not going to make a big deal of this- hit my whistle, point the other direction, yell the color and get on with the game. He can direct his frustration toward his poorly coached player.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2004, 01:44pm
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Smile

Is a throw in truly a pass? If the other player is out of bounds, why would you need to bounce pass it to them???? Why not just a simple pass. It would be quicker and if deception is what you are attempting to throw off the other team, I would think a bounce pass would not be as affective.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2004, 07:53pm
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I see no problem after a field goal in bounce passing the ball to a second player OOB but agree that it would slow down the play and allow the defense to adjust.
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