Bunch of new-guy type questions

[OverAndBack]

Thanks for everybody's encouragement and advice to this point. I have several questions that some of you will probably roll your eyes at, but I'm new at this, and I'll put them in one thread to inconvenience the fewest people.

Off-the-court questions[list=1][*]I just received my official card and patches from my state association. Two patches - is that one to keep and one to share, or one for shirt and one for jacket, or two for shirts in case you have two shirts?[*]Included in all the paperwork was an order form for business cards with the state association logo that would identify me as a LICENSED OFFICIAL with my ID number, sport, name, address, phone, etc. $48.00 for 100, $53.25 for 200, $63.75 for 500. Does anybody actually get these things, or am I risking being labelled an obvious newbie geek by getting them? And does that seem expensive? [/list=1]

On-the-court questions[list=1][*]I've been having trouble with over-and-back calls here in the early going. I've blown a couple. Anyone have any tips for the trail when it's likely that you're going to see some close guarding near the halfway line, which could result in situations where the ball gets tipped or thrown into the backcourt? Anything I can do with positioning or where to look or mental notes or anything?[*]On three seconds - this weekend, Team A would come down and set up on offense, with their center right at the free throw line, with his back to the basket and his heels across the free throw line in the paint. He would camp there and hardly move - is this three seconds? I asked my partner (very experienced) who said the three-second area for purposes of that rule doesn't start until farther down in the key. I'm confused about that one, so any help there would be appreciated.[*]I have been doing a lot of girls' games in grades 5-8 and they feature a lot (a LOT) of jump ball situations, where two players get a hold of the ball and tie it up. How long do you wait on that, is it different for different levels, is this something that happens more at lower levels or are my partners and I just too quick to whistle or too slow to let it play out?[*]One thing I've also seen a lot of is a player going to the floor to get a loose ball. They're lying on the floor with the ball. Usually they'll try to get it to a teammate, but there's an inevitable piling on and movement. At what point is it a travel, at what point do you let it go, at what point is it a foul, and are there any hard and fast rules (or rules of thumb) in that situation? I thought if they roll away from a defender, it's a travel. If they stand up, it's a travel. What other situations do you look for, and how do you call it? [/list=1]

Again, sorry for the newbieness of the questions. Thanks for the help. One thing I've noticed so far in the games I've worked is that my more-experienced partners have all been tremendously helpful and accomodating with my inexperience.

[mick]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
I have several questions ....

OverAndBack,
I'd like to help, but I'm generally only good for one question per thread.
Multiple questions on one thread are hard for me to follow, ... so I don't.
Good luck.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
[*]I just received my official card and patches from my state association. Two patches - is that one to keep and one to share, or one for shirt and one for jacket, or two for shirts in case you have two shirts?[*]Included in all the paperwork was an order form for business cards with the state association logo that would identify me as a LICENSED OFFICIAL with my ID number, sport, name, address, phone, etc. $48.00 for 100, $53.25 for 200, $63.75 for 500. Does anybody actually get these things, or am I risking being labelled an obvious newbie geek by getting them? And does that seem expensive?

1: ask someone in your association what they expect you to do with your patches.

2. I've never seen a card, doesn't mean no one has them. My employer buys business cards for me, they pay a LOT lesss than what you've been quoted.

On-the-court questions[*]On three seconds - this weekend, Team A would come down and set up on offense, with their center right at the free throw line, with his back to the basket and his heels across the free throw line in the paint. He would camp there and hardly move - is this three seconds? I asked my partner (very experienced) who said the three-second area for purposes of that rule doesn't start until farther down in the key. I'm confused about that one, so any help there would be appreciated.

No, don't call this. In effect your partner's right.

[*]I have been doing a lot of girls' games in grades 5-8 and they feature a lot (a LOT) of jump ball situations, where two players get a hold of the ball and tie it up. How long do you wait on that, is it different for different levels, is this something that happens more at lower levels or are my partners and I just too quick to whistle or too slow to let it play out?

Wait until you're positive no one will take it away, or they start to walk all over the floor, or it looks like the situation is getting out of hand with respect to emotion and/or contact. In your girl's game it's probably safe to count to 3 or 4 after you first get the urge to blow the whistle.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

OverAndBack,
I'd like to help, but I'm generally only good for one question per thread.
Multiple questions on one thread are hard for me to follow, ... so I don't.
Good luck.
mick

Ran out of metamucil over the wekend?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[*]I have been doing a lot of girls' games in grades 5-8 and they feature a lot (a LOT) of jump ball situations, where two players get a hold of the ball and tie it up. How long do you wait on that, is it different for different levels, is this something that happens more at lower levels or are my partners and I just too quick to whistle or too slow to let it play out?

Wait until you're positive no one will take it away, or they start to walk all over the floor, or it looks like the situation is getting out of hand with respect to emotion and/or contact. In your girl's game it's probably safe to count to 3 or 4 after you first get the urge to blow the whistle. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dan -- you must count a lot faster than I do, or work a lot fewer of this type of games. I generally am much quicker on the whistle at this level, and I think it's justified. If two opponents each have any kind of control of the ball at all, I whistle right away, and whistle loudly, prepare to repeat quickly. They can get so intent on their own stuff, that they don't hear the whistle. Otherwise, there's just too much potential for injury and the emotions do get out of control.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
[*]I've been having trouble with over-and-back calls here in the early going. I've blown a couple. Anyone have any tips for the trail when it's likely that you're going to see some close guarding near the halfway line, which could result in situations where the ball gets tipped or thrown into the backcourt? Anything I can do with positioning or where to look or mental notes or anything?[*]

It's usually best to stay well back from the division line, and work hard for an angle INTO the middle of the play. Watch the ball religiously to see who touches it last. If there's any doubt at all, act like the defense tipped it into the back court.

Also, you have to really watch for the little bump foul that pushes the dribbler over the line. Sometimes the dribbler steps back to avoid contact and there is no foul. Watch carefully.

The other time you'll catch over and back is when the dribbler has just achieved frontcourt status and then passes it cross-court to a teammate who is in the air, having just been in the backcourt. See it coming and be sure it happens, and then call this before her feet hit the ground.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

No, don't call this. In effect your partner's right.
[/B]

Technically the scenario he presented does indeed qualify for the 3-second violation if any part of the kid's foot is over the paint for more than 3 seconds (9-7). There is no magic line in the paint where you call this or don't call it. The clarification for where the foot needs to be and where the boundaries are is very clear in the rule book. It's purely an advantage/disadvantage thing, unless you always call it by the book.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Ran out of metamucil over the wekend?

I hadta google that one.
You are correct.
None in the house.
mick

[jcarter]

Well since I am new to the basketball scene also I will let the other guys answer the on court questions.. =)

As to the business cards, Yes alot of guys use them. At least here they do. Even though for basketball the association does alot of the assignments for some of the other sports and for last minuet replacement they do not always take care of this. It is ultimately the schools responcibility to make sure they have officials onsite.

So for around here it is handy to have the card with all your sports listed so when you go to coaches/officials meetings you can hand out cards to all the Athletic Directors and Coaches if you want to have a better chance of getting games.

From one new guy to another, Dont let em see ya sweat

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Wait until you're positive no one will take it away, or they start to walk all over the floor, or it looks like the situation is getting out of hand with respect to emotion and/or contact. In your girl's game it's probably safe to count to 3 or 4 after you first get the urge to blow the whistle.

Dan -- you must count a lot faster than I do, or work a lot fewer of this type of games. I generally am much quicker on the whistle at this level, and I think it's justified. If two opponents each have any kind of control of the ball at all, I whistle right away, and whistle loudly, prepare to repeat quickly. They can get so intent on their own stuff, that they don't hear the whistle. Otherwise, there's just too much potential for injury and the emotions do get out of control. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wanna hear me count to 3?

Wanna hear it again?

As I said blow it when it gets out of hand, but in general most rookies like O&B do blow for held balls way too quickly.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Smitty

Technically the scenario he presented does indeed qualify for the 3-second violation if any part of the kid's foot is over the paint for more than 3 seconds (9-7). There is no magic line in the paint where you call this or don't call it. The clarification for where the foot needs to be and where the boundaries are is very clear in the rule book. It's purely an advantage/disadvantage thing, unless you always call it by the book. [/B]

Smitty
In effect, you have said the same thing as Dan. If you are talking heels over the FT line, it doesn't create the huge advantage that the rule is trying to prevent. Being 14.9 feet from the basket is not much of an advantage. Trying to stay within 3 feet in the low block is a huge advantage. Unless you can point out where this is creating a hugely unfair situation, this is one you ignore.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Smitty
In effect, you have said the same thing as Dan. If you are talking heels over the FT line, it doesn't create the huge advantage that the rule is trying to prevent. Being 14.9 feet from the basket is not much of an advantage. Trying to stay within 3 feet in the low block is a huge advantage. Unless you can point out where this is creating a hugely unfair situation, this is one you ignore. [/B]

No, I wasn't saying the same thing as Dan. I wanted to be sure that the rookie who was asking the question understood that the scenario he posted was indeed grounds for a 3-second call, if he deemed it so. I might call a 3-second call that far out - the rule specifically states that this area of the court is where the count should be administered. If being that far out is not ever an advantage, then the rule should change. Neither you nor I get to change the rules to suit us. If they someday paint the botton half of the free throw lane a different color and call that the 3-second area, that's how I'll call it. Until then, if a kid is standing in the paint just inside the free throw line for 5 seconds, then he receives a pass, I might call that right then and there if I think it's the right thing to do based on the situation. There's nothing you can point to to tell me I'm wrong.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Smitty

No, I wasn't saying the same thing as Dan. I wanted to be sure that the rookie who was asking the question understood that the scenario he posted was indeed grounds for a 3-second call, if he deemed it so. I might call a 3-second call that far out - the rule specifically states that this area of the court is where the count should be administered. If being that far out is not ever an advantage, then the rule should change. Neither you nor I get to change the rules to suit us. If they someday paint the botton half of the free throw lane a different color and call that the 3-second area, that's how I'll call it. Until then, if a kid is standing in the paint just inside the free throw line for 5 seconds, then he receives a pass, I might call that right then and there if I think it's the right thing to do based on the situation. There's nothing you can point to to tell me I'm wrong. [/B]

So...if we agree it's advantage/disadvantage on this call, can you tell me what advantage a player has gained by standing with his back to the basket and his heels on the FT line? And notice he didn't say anything about a pass, or a rebound, he simply said the kid is standing there with his back to the basket and was wondering if he should call 3 seconds.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
So...if we agree it's advantage/disadvantage on this call, can you tell me what advantage a player has gained by standing with his back to the basket and his heels on the FT line? And notice he didn't say anything about a pass, or a rebound, he simply said the kid is standing there with his back to the basket and was wondering if he should call 3 seconds.

Of course I can't. Without a specific game situation, no one could. But I don't think you can say never as the rule certainly allows for it. What I'm saying is there could absolutely be a scenario, maybe not the one with the kid having his back to the basket, where I would call 3 seconds in this area of the paint. If you never would, that's fine. But it could happen and be backed up by the rules.

If all the original poster really cares about is that specific scenario, with the kid standing there, back to the basket and no pass to him, then I agree, don't call it. But if he was wondering whether this was a valid place on the court to call 3-seconds, it absolutely is.

[OverAndBack]

That is correct - that's what I was asking. He was just setting up shop there, but they weren't really running the offense through him or anything.

Normally, if they're standing around closer to the baseline and I'm lead (having been told that three seconds is a call you'd rather not make all the time) I'll just say "get out of the lane" if need be to keep play moving, since they're more just standing there than getting a huge advantage. And usually only the kids involved can hear it.

But when the kid's 15 feet (or 14.9 feet) away, I'm not going to yell up to the free throw line. But if there's no real advantage gained (which is, at the end of the day, what we're there for, right? To make sure neither team gets an unfair advantage?), I could see not making a big deal out of it.

Like I said, my partner had been at this for 18 years, he said. So I went with that. Didn't affect the outcome, it seems.

rainmaker, thanks for the tips on over and back. I'll try that next time. And I know you have to be all the way over before you can be over and back, right? So a player who comes partway across the line, but never gets both feet over, and then moves to the left or right and has the ball and/or a foot on either side of the line hasn't committed a violation?

I knew about the other scenario, where a player who was in backcourt comes over and takes a pass. You're considered to have achieved possession on the side of the court where your feet left the floor. Had that happen in high school when I played.

[Edited by OverAndBack on Feb 9th, 2004 at 01:55 PM]