Ref Ejected

[davidw]

Originally posted by KingTripleJump
We don't contract here in Texas. I read that article as soon as I got home tonight from our Chapter Meeting. The ironic thing was this very thing, ref's not keeping their mouths shut, was the #1 thing on the list for discussion from the board.

I'd say this guy got exactly what he deserved.

See Rich's comment. A Slippery Slope Indeed!!!

Base on your strong comment, I'm assuming you had first hand knowledge of the entire situation?? If not, how can you, in good conscience, say: "(he) got exactly what he deserved"?

The actions by the game admin. are definitely not a good precedent. I'm with Chuck on this, 'it's my game til the 32 min. are up and my partner and I have left the vicinity of the court.'

[gostars]

Referee denies using profanity

Parents stunned by alleged retort during game


04:45 PM CST on Thursday, January 29, 2004


By DAVID McNABB / The Dallas Morning News



MESQUITE – A veteran referee denied through his attorney that he used profanity or had any interaction with fans while officiating the Mesquite Poteet-Mesquite Horn s basketball game Tuesday night.

Several parents and fans said that Woods, a 19-year game official, turned toward the stands and directed a profanity at them as a Horn player was set to shoot a free throw.

“(Woods)’ recollection is that he didn’t say anything to anyone but players,” attorney George Yarbrough said Thursday. “He never said anything to anybody …(Woods) doesn’t remember anything out of the ordinary said by the fans. Just the regular stuff.”

Parents said there had been some yelling at the officials but nothing of a personal nature.

"(Woods) turned around and said (the profanity) very distinctly," said Teresa Carey, whose daughter, Triauna, plays for Poteet. "And all the little kids went, 'Oooohh.' "

Said Velma Wommack, whose daughter, Jessica, plays for Poteet: "Everyone's jaw dropped. We all turned around to look at each other like, 'Did he just say that?' "

Woods was escorted from PoteetÂ’s gym and the game suspended at halftime. Poteet assistant principal David Medina -- the on-site administrator in charge -- asked Woods to leave. The game was completed Wednesday night, with Poteet winning, 46-24.

Dallas Basketball Officials Association president Steve Mankin said Wednesday heÂ’s investigating the incident but couldnÂ’t comment. Elvenn Richardson, the co-official at TuesdayÂ’s games, said itÂ’s against DBOA policy for referees to discuss games.

Yarbrough said he was retained by Woods to help him through the investigation process.

Several people connected with officiating and game management said incidents involving referees are typically handled differently.

Paul Galvan, a longtime official and former supervisor with the Southwest Conference who is now Fort Worth ISD athletic director, said Woods probably should not have been ejected.

Galvan said he believed the usual procedure would be for the school administrator to make a complaint to the Texas Association of Sporting Officials, of which every referee must be a member.

"They could have gone to the referee and said they don't want to hear any profanity," Galvan said, "and then make a report."

TASO assistant director Steven Ellinger said if a school administrator – routinely assigned to monitor games – doesn't hear something personally, "it might not be a good thing for fans to think they can go say this and get rid of the official."

Ellinger said if the security officers had intervened first, then it would have been a legal matter and out of the hands of school officials and referees. He said there have been complaints made against officials for inappropriate language in the past, and that TASO has the power to ban or suspend officials for such language.

Ellinger said it was basic TASO policy that officials shouldn't interact with fans. "It's just not a win situation," Ellinger said.

Longtime coaches and officials said it's the first time they had heard of a referee being ejected.

"I have heard officials and fans get into it," Duncanville boys basketball coach Phil McNeely said. "But I've never seen the official go."

Staff Writer Kate Hairopoulos contributed to this report.

E-mail [email protected]

[Hawks Coach]

jrut
sorry - I confused your post with RicH F's. I should have directed my comments to Rich. My point was only that appropriate authorities would still weigh in, so due process was not denied. If the administrator acted only on what the home fans said to him, then I would say that I have an issue with the ejection. from the follow-up articales, it sounds like that may have occurred, but we don't have the whole story. If the official said one of the magic words and the administrator heard it, I have no problem with him being removed and let everyone sort it out later.

My example would be if an official told a coach, player or fan to F off. If a player said this to an official, he would be gone as would a coach. It's an HS game, so an official could be gone for this as well. If it isn't so obvious, this could be handled with a conversation at halftime (and it was halftime) and the game could continue.

And the refs would be right to say they were calling it a forfeit - and al this can be sorted out later. The powers that be can decide the resolution of the game and the situation with the referee. But game administration has the right to decide what they will tolerate in their gym. If their decision is irrational and not backed up by higher authorities, they should pay the price for that decision. But night of the game, they make the call and live with it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
And the refs would be right to say they were calling it a forfeit - and al this can be sorted out later. The powers that be can decide the resolution of the game and the situation with the referee. But game administration has the right to decide what they will tolerate in their gym. If their decision is irrational and not backed up by higher authorities, they should pay the price for that decision. But night of the game, they make the call and live with it.

At least in my state, the forfeit would be final. It would not be up for debate or discussion. The IHSA considers official's decisions to be final. So if it cost you a conference title or cost you more games for your conduct, if that is the route you want to take, so be it. And I would not be officiating a game by myself because an administrator did not like something an official did. I know I would not be leaving myself without the game being forfeited and I would support my partner and leave as well. Because we cannot have fans and players dictating who stays and goes. That is why administrators take any kind of action in my opinion like this. Because it is a "he said, she said" situation. I have no problem with reporting the official, but to dictate that he stays or not is flat our wrong. Because if you do it for profanity, are we going to do it because we do not like a call? Are you going to do it because a coach got ejected? The officials are the ultimate authority of the game, not the game management. Because if someone is not cooperating in running that game, it is not the official that should be leaving. Folks here want to always talk about what the rules say, what rule supports this action? The story does not even say what profanity was used. And for me that does matter. Because some people feel that saying "pi$$t" is a profanity word. I need more than "profanity" to even back this situation.

Peace

[KingTripleJump]

No, I didn't have first hand knowledge of the situation. Does that mean I can't make an opinion? It's not like my opinion of the situation is set in stone. However, as this story continues to unfold, (there is another write up about it in the Dallas Morning News Today) some of us will likely see another point to the story and thereby making another opinion of the whole situation. I could very well be one of those people.

Originally posted by davidw

See Rich's comment. A Slippery Slope Indeed!!!

Base on your strong comment, I'm assuming you had first hand knowledge of the entire situation?? If not, how can you, in good conscience, say: "(he) got exactly what he deserved"?

The actions by the game admin. are definitely not a good precedent. I'm with Chuck on this, 'it's my game til the 32 min. are up and my partner and I have left the vicinity of the court.'

[davidw]

Originally posted by KingTripleJump
No, I didn't have first hand knowledge of the situation. Does that mean I can't make an opinion? It's not like my opinion of the situation is set in stone. However, as this story continues to unfold, (there is another write up about it in the Dallas Morning News Today) some of us will likely see another point to the story and thereby making another opinion of the whole situation. I could very well be one of those people.

I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion, I only questioned how you could make such a strong, unqualified statement like you did. And only to get you thinking more in depth. And, as you have pointed out in your most recent post, waited to get more than one side as well as more info from other sources.

If you had said something like: "If this happened as reported then he got exactly what he deserved.", then I would have no qualms with your opinion at all.

[Hawks Coach]

Certain incdividuals seem to want to playe the what if game - what if game admin didn't like the calls, what if the coach got ejected and game admin responded by ejecting the ref, etc. That does not appear to have happened here, but if it did, the school would, without doubt, pay a price for having taken this action.

Now lets play "what if" the other direction. What if the ref pulled out a gun? What if the ref started a fist fight with the crowd? At what point would you allow game admin to say we are done? Is there any case where you would say game admin could step in and say game over? If so, then we are simply talking about a case where that occurred, and what would be enough for that to occur.

[PS2Man]

H Coach,

You can "what if," all day. Administrators are not the ones that have this authority. The rules does not give them that authority. Unless you have a guideline from your organization they cannot do that. You can always use extreame situations to make a point but none of that happen. This is not about an official that pulled out a gun. This is about a verbal confrontation. An administrator cannot just decide the officials goes. If that is the case then an administrator could use the logic if a coach and official have words. That does happen rather often.

[One-Whistle]

Addressing the "what ifs"...

Would this administrator have "tossed" his coach for negatively reacting (using profanity) to an official's call or opposing fans?

[PS2Man]

If I did not make it clear. This official should be reported and suspended in my opinion if any of this is true. If for no other reason that he interacted with fans and there were words of some kind. He acted completely unprofessionally and should be dealt with. The action on his part would result in a suspension or losing of games if done where I have worked. I just feel that the administrator has no authority to do anything. He or she has the authority over their fans. But if you have a problem with the official then the administrator should report the official and go through a process. Because if they do not do that where do you draw the line on this type of authority? No rules cover this authority that I am aware of? Is there?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by One-Whistle
Addressing the "what ifs"...

Would this administrator have "tossed" his coach for negatively reacting (using profanity) to an official's call or opposing fans?

You do not see them address situations where the coaches and fans use that kind of language. Why are they not using the same logic to dumb a coach themselves?

What about the Duke/Maryland game? Administrators allowed the Maryland students come in the gym with "F**K Duke" shirts on them? Why not take action in situations like that?

Peace

[Forksref]

There is NOTHING to prevent a team for getting rid of an official based on his calls. That is the reality of officiating.

And that reality might include an evaluation by the association of their relationship with that school/coach in the future.

don't talk to fans, dont' talk to fans...

[tomegun]

I agree with Jrut. How far are they going to go? There are already too many instances where the home team ironically gets more calls because some of us find it harder to make calls against the home team. If he is strong then good for him. If he cleared the gym there would be people complaining about that. The game should have went on and they could have taken action after the game. The game should be a forfeit.

Let someone try to "eject" me tonight! There will be some smoke in the city.

[Edited by tomegun on Jan 30th, 2004 at 01:13 PM]

[Jim Armstrong]

Best thing to remember when dealing with fans is,
"Silence can never be quoted" This comes from a college assigner, and I have heard several veteran officials quote it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Forksref
There is NOTHING to prevent a team for getting rid of an official based on his calls. That is the reality of officiating.

I can speak for my state only. But there are guidelines for conduct by the schools and how they run the game. Of course they have say over what is done in their gym, but that does not override the decisions that are made by the official. If they do try to override an official's decision, that can easily forefit the game. If they violate the spirit of the rules, they can result in further action and action has been taken. Member schools of the IHSA agree to these rules and if they violate those rules, are subject to further action. That might include forfieting of more games or not being elgibile for post season games or losing summer practice rights. And at least the TASO admits that this action was not proper. This incident might cost this school as well as this official that were involved. If this had happen on a game I worked, I would not only be required to file a report with the state, and the school would have to answer to their actions. Same would be done if someone reported me from the school.

Originally posted by Forksref
And that reality might include an evaluation by the association of their relationship with that school/coach in the future.

don't talk to fans, dont' talk to fans...

I agree, nothing good can come with confronting fans.

Peace