Two Whistle Situations

[Rock'nRef]

I had two interesting situations in games this week involving the timing of a whistle and wanted to run it by everyone for comment.

Situation #1:
My partner is at baseline (table side) to administer throw-in. I'm near half-court(opposite table) due to full court press. It was loud in the gym but I hear the coach of the in-bounding team yell for a timeout. Whenever I blow my whistle for a timeout, my partner blows his at exactly the same time for a 5 second throw-in violation. Who has precedence in this situation. I backed off and let my partner control the call(he was the referee). After further thought, I felt that we should have discussed it and probably give the coach the timeout. Your thoughts??

Situation #2: (Different game)
Five seconds left in first quarter. Team A inbounds ball and is being pressed. A player from Team B comes over and gives Player A1 (who is dribbling) a pretty good wack. I blow my whistle exactly at the same time the horn blows to end the quarter. Count the foul??? I let it go, but after further thought, I know that the foul happened a split second before the horn sounded. Your thoughts??

Thanks for your help,

Rock'n Ref

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rock'nRef
I had two interesting situations in games this week involving the timing of a whistle and wanted to run it by everyone for comment.

Situation #1:
My partner is at baseline (table side) to administer throw-in. I'm near half-court(opposite table) due to full court press. It was loud in the gym but I hear the coach of the in-bounding team yell for a timeout. Whenever I blow my whistle for a timeout, my partner blows his at exactly the same time for a 5 second throw-in violation. Who has precedence in this situation. I backed off and let my partner control the call(he was the referee). After further thought, I felt that we should have discussed it and probably give the coach the timeout. Your thoughts??

You should have unless you absolutely knew, which was first. But you should have run to him and said, "I had a timeout, which might have been first?"

Originally posted by Rock'nRef

Situation #2: (Different game)
Five seconds left in first quarter. Team A inbounds ball and is being pressed. A player from Team B comes over and gives Player A1 (who is dribbling) a pretty good wack. I blow my whistle exactly at the same time the horn blows to end the quarter. Count the foul??? I let it go, but after further thought, I know that the foul happened a split second before the horn sounded. Your thoughts??

Would it have affected the outcome of the game? If not, you probably did right to just let it go. If it did and you were sure, you need to sell that call. But again, be 100% sure it was first. You do not want to be wrong about that call.

Peace

[BigJoe]

In the first situation, the coach gets the time-out when I hear him yell "TIME-OUT", not when my whistle blows. So obviously, there is a time lapse between hearing the request, and your brain telling you to blow your whistle. So I'm going to my partner with my hand still in the air with an open hand and telling him I have a time-out before the violation.

In the second situation I agree with Rut. Unless it was a serious whack that the whole gym saw and heard. Since it is the first quarter perhaps a foul will help you down the road from the game getting too physical on the perimiter and the dribbler.

[Mike Burns]

My $.02.

Sitch #1:
Whistles sound at the exact same time. I hate it when that happens. If I were you I would have gone to partner and said we had a time out by coach A. If your partner insists on the 5 sec violation then go with it, but if your partner blew his whistle for the five second count after you recognized the coaches request (you recognized the coaches request before you blew your whistle) then I think you grant the T/O. The reason the coach requested the T/O was because he knew the count was at 4. That being said, the players should be coached to request timeout in that situation.

Sitch #2
I agree with Rut with regards to allowing for the game situation, (... be 100% sure it was first. You do not want to be wrong about that call.) In the origional post you said this foul occured at the end of the first quarter. If it is an obvious foul that occured before time expired, then report the foul. If it is a shooting foul or bonus situation then have the player shoot the throws with no time on the clock and the lane empty.

[Mregor]

In Sit #2, I believe you need to either hold your whistle or call the foul; one or the other. With only 5 seconds left in the period, you should know that and have your "mental clock" counting down. If the contact is such that you have to call it with 1 second left, blow your whistle and do so. If the contact does not need to be called, don't blow your whistle. If the situation was as you described and not a scoring attempt, I'd let the period expire without a call.

Mregor

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mregor
If the situation was as you described and not a scoring attempt, I'd let the period expire without a call.

The situation descibed was "a pretty good wack" on a dribbler during the first quarter. Are you going to ignore the exact same "pretty good wack" on all dribblers for the rest of that game?

Consistency, guys! We set the pattern of how much contact that we are gonna allow.Once we set it, we shouldn't change it. That just confuses ballplayers and coaches.

[bob jenkins]

Twice in one game you had these events occurring at *exactly* the same time!? Possible, but not likely.

Improve your jjudgment of waht happened first.

1) Grant the TO

2) Call the foul.

[SteveF]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Twice in one game you had these events occurring at *exactly* the same time!? Possible, but not likely.

Improve your jjudgment of waht happened first.

1) Grant the TO

2) Call the foul.

I fully agree with Bob.

[lightenup]

He did state that these two happened in different games so ease up on the judgement comments a little.

For the first, I think he should have talked with his partner and granted the timeout.

The second, I feel should have been a foul if it would be one he would have called any other time.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by lightenup
He did state that these two happened in different games so ease up on the judgement comments a little.

Yep -- I missed that part.

And, apologies if it sounded like "preaching" -- very rarely do these events happen exactly at the same time. Decide what happend first and rule accordingly -- it's similar to the case where a violation and a foul happen "at the same time" -- the officials are to decide which happened first.

[TriggerMN]

I had the first situation come up a couple of years ago. I brought both coaches together and explained we had a time out, because my whistle came right before my partner's for the 5-second count. The coach on the short end yells, "That's bu**$hit!" He got dinged. 2 point game with about a minute to go, but if I don't ding him there, when the whole gym heard it, I would probably not be officiating today.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The situation descibed was "a pretty good wack" on a dribbler during the first quarter. Are you going to ignore the exact same "pretty good wack" on all dribblers for the rest of that game?

Consistency, guys! We set the pattern of how much contact that we are gonna allow.Once we set it, we shouldn't change it. That just confuses ballplayers and coaches.

JR, He said that he blew his whistle and the horn went off at exactly the same time. My point was that he should be aware of the game situation and if he is going to put air in his whistle for the foul, he should call it. You need to decide before you blow your whistle if it is a foul or not. As for me, I'm counting down in my head, and if the contact is that close to the buzzer and the play is in the backcourt, yes I'm going to ignore any minor contact.

Mregor

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Rock'nRef


Situation #2: (Different game)
Five seconds left in first quarter. Team A inbounds ball and is being pressed. A player from Team B comes over and gives Player A1 (who is dribbling) a pretty good wack. I blow my whistle exactly at the same time the horn blows to end the quarter. Count the foul??? I let it go, but after further thought, I know that the foul happened a split second before the horn sounded. Your thoughts??

Thanks for your help,

Rock'n Ref

You answered your own question as to whether you had a foul. Your whistle sounded at the same time that the horn sounded. Your sounded your whistle after you observed the foul, therefore the foul occured before the end of the quarter. Charge and penalize the foul.

[Rock'nRef]

Hello All,

I just wanted to thank you for all of your comments. I expected the responses that I received on Situation #1. I know how I will handle that situation down the road.

In Situation #2, I feel that many of you misunderstood the question that I was asking. At no time did I mention that I questioned myself in making the call. As I mentioned, it was a "good wack". I hate to see a kid make a dumb foul in that situation and knew that this "wack" could not be passed on. My main question involved the actual timing of the foul in relation to our whistle and the clock. I wasn't sure if a foul was recognized when it actually happens or when we blow our whistle. My rational was that the clock does not stop when any foul actually happens but when we blow our whistle, so should this same theory be applied to the final horn??

I feel that Mark DeNucci answered it best. It's when the foul actually happens, not when we blow our whistle. Thanks

I can now say that I have taken another step... I hoped that it has helped someone else out there also.

Later,

Rock'n Ref