Missed the number of the fouler

[Tnovak]

I have a question regarding something that should never happens. I had this situation come up:

A-10 drives in for a layup and is fouled in the act of shooting by B-?. As A-10 went to the floor hard, I stopped to check to see if she was injured. Because of the angle of the defensive player, I was unable to see the number on her jersey during the play. When I Iooked up after checking A-10, there were several Team B players there. I checked with my co-official and he gave me a number, but was not 100% sure. The scorer had no idea who had fouled, either.

I eventually ruled that the foul would be charged as a team foul, but not as a personal foul. I am almost certain that this is the correct call and have seen it in the rulebook, but cannot find it now.

Can anyone tell me where it is in the book? Also, can you, by rule, consult the scorer in this case?

[Dan_ref]

Wha?

Pick a number, report the foul and finish the game. And trust your partner.

[Tim Roden]

Take your partner's number. Sometime I go over and look at the book and of the two or three I think it could be, give it to the one with the least number of fouls. If you don't know and you give it to that guy with 4 fouls, you will see a coach come unglued!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Tnovak
I eventually ruled that the foul would be charged as a team foul, but not as a personal foul. I am almost certain that this is the correct call and have seen it in the rulebook, but cannot find it now.

Can anyone tell me where it is in the book? Also, can you, by rule, consult the scorer in this case?

It wasn't the correct call, as there is no such rule.

BTW, welcome to the board.

[zebracz]

Pick a number, report the foul and finish the game.


IN LIGHT OF BOTH OF THESE:

Like you said above, you just don't let it happen (not getting the foul-er's number--which is just testament on how much we have to pay attention.) The best remedy is to just not let it happen, but I am sure there is not a person/referee in here that has NOT had that happen to them. Right ya'll?

So, basically, be always aware. Remember to get the number, even if you have other extra-curricular stuff/players to ref (especially during a dead ball). We just have to train ourselves. "Practice, practice, practice," as A.I. (#3) would say.

can you, by rule, consult the scorer in this case?

As for this, you bet. By rule, you may confer w// the scorer on any 'correctable error,' admin. So, go for it. One problem w/ doing this, though, is two-fold: 1) It takes too long, and 2) you look uncertain and doubting which takes away from your credibility as an official.

So, hopefully, this helps out. I just try to remember that my game administration has a lot to do w/ how I'm accepted (esp. w/ the close calls) on the court. Good luck and welcome to da boards!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by zebracz
We just have to train ourselves. "Practice, practice, practice," as A.I. (#3) would say.

I'm pretty sure "practice, practice, practice" was the answer to "Excuse me, can you tell me how to get to Carnege Hall?" loooooong before A.I. went to prison for his high school bowling alley brawl.

By rule, you may confer w// the scorer on any 'correctable error,' admin.

Unfortunately, reporting the incorrect number to the scorer is not a correctable error under Rule 2-10.

[Rich]

I've had it happen once or twice at the varsity level.

Here's one: Player driving opposite me as the lead. I closed down (didn't have time to cross over) and the defender got steamrolled. Easy player control foul. Unfortunately, the defender got plowed right into me (my feet) and I had to jump quickly to avoid getting leg whipped by the defender's body. Afterwards I checked on the defender to see he was OK and realized I had no idea who fouled him.

The table knew and nobody gave me grief for it since I was dodging a player.

The other time I was just a clueless idiot who was in a hurry to get to the table and get the game going. That time I paid the price by having to go back to my partner and coming up with a number. Not good.

That's why we need to stay at the spot of the foul and run through a mental checklist before heading to report.

Rich

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

I heard good advice about this on this board a couple of years back. Say your partner gave you the number 22. Turn to 22 and say, "22, that was your foul, right?" Either you are correct, or 22 will say "No, that was 33!" Problem solved.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
I heard good advice about this on this board a couple of years back. Say your partner gave you the number 22. Turn to 22 and say, "22, that was your foul, right?" Either you are correct, or 22 will say "No, that was 33!" Problem solved.

Coach, I hope that I wasn't the one who gave this advice.

Last thing I'm gonna do is ask a player if he wants to help me figure out who the foul is on.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Unfortunately, reporting the incorrect number to the scorer is not a correctable error under Rule 2-10.

If you report the wrong number to the scorer this results in a bookkeeping mistake, (a foul charged to the wrong player)which may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. 2-11-11

[Adam]

It's not a bookkeeping mistake if she reports the number you gave her.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
It's not a bookkeeping mistake if she reports the number you gave her.

We had this argument once before here, and I don't remember what the majority said. I say that if the wrong information is in the book, it is a bookkeeping mistake, even though it was my fault, not the scorer's. Therefore, if I realize my mistake, I can give the scorer the right number, and the mistake can be corrected.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by just another ref

If you report the wrong number to the scorer this results in a bookkeeping mistake, (a foul charged to the wrong player)which may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. 2-11-11

Yup, JAR, I know that. I was just trying to get zebra away from the "correctable error" language.

[Smitty]

I had something similar happen in my first scrimmage this season - thank God it was a scrimmage. I have reffed for 10 years but just started up again after a 5 year hiatus, so this scrimmage was my first time on the court in 5 years. I felt really good and remembered all my mechanics pretty well for being rusty. Situation was a fast break, I'm the lead running hard to keep up with the play. As the shooter was just going airborn, a defender slides in underneath him and *crash* - easy blocking call. I look down at the player on the floor who was on his butt. I figured this must be the guy who committed the blocking foul. I report the guy to the table (luckily no one was paying any attention because it was a scrimmage - we were just going through our motions for our own good) and lo and behold the guy I just called the foul on steps up to the free-throw line. I called the foul on the poor guy who got fouled. If it was a real game I would have been in quite the bind at that point. Because it happened to me at all means I am ultra-aware of it and will definitely be on top of the fouler from here on out. We learn from our mistakes.

And it feels good to be on the court again. I'm glad I found this discussion forum.

[Edited by Smitty on Dec 1st, 2003 at 03:59 PM]

[AK ref SE]

Welcome to the board Smitty!

AK ref SE