Bad toss and rejump - the clock.

[tomegun]

Thank you Jurassic.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

The clock shouldn't start until the jump ball is legally touched.

If the R doesn't throw the ball up at in a plane at right angles to the sidelines and dso the ball will drop between the jumpers, it's not a jump ball, so the ball isn't legally touched.

And, yes, I'm reaching to find rules that support what I think is the "right" thing to do here.

Hmmm....what I got loosely says the jump starts when it leaves the officials hand & ends when it's touched; the game clock starts when the jump ball is legally touched; the toss shall be repeated when a bad toss is made.

As you say the only thing you have to hang your hat on (IMO) is what constitutes legally touched. I tend to think it means a touch that does not otherwise violate the jump ball provisions, and might also mean the ball is to be touched inbounds.

I can't for the life of me see how it means the ref didn't screw up the toss. And I surely don't see where it says the bad toss requires us to put expired time back on (and maybe even ignore fouls except for flagrant or intentional fouls blah blah blah...?). I mean, words to this effect are there for other times we screw it up, why not this time?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
5-9-2
If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

If the toss is bad, ball is not live and it is not legally touched, therefore clock doesn't start (or shouldn't). That's why I say re-set on first condition I outlined - obviously subject to debate.

As for starting in the second case, it seems clear to me. Ball was legally touched, clock starts on tap and stops on whistle. That's how the rule reads (stopping is in 5-8-1, and it is when official signals a violation, not when violation occurs).

Forget your second case, it's trivial. (And forget JR's post, it makes the answer all too clear & short circuits a good discussion )

As I asked Bob, how does a BAD toss mean the ball can not be subsequently LEGALLY touched?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

(And forget JR's post, it makes the answer all too clear & short circuits a good discussion

[/B][/QUOTE]Well,if you don't need me, I guess I'll go have my nappy then.

[cmathews]

I agree with HawksCoach, obviously since I was the first to say put it back on the clock ..My thinking is, the ball isn't legally touched because the toss isn't "legal" for lack of a better word. When the referee realizes that the toss is bad, it becomes a dead ball regardless of the whistle (whistles don't make the ball dead except for inadvertant whistles)..since the ball is dead it is not "legally" touched and therefore the clock was started improperly, through no fault of the timer but still improperly...so I say reset it to 8:00 and let's go again..besides it is the "right" thing to do

[refgatormaz]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Got a rule, AR, case play or memo on this?


You guys could be right but I've never seen one.
[/B]

I have. Casebook play 5.10.1SitA- "In instances where the the timer has NOT made an obvious mistake, the referee is NOT authorized to either put time on the clock or take time off the clock".

That's pretty clear. Forget about putting the 4 seconds back on. The rules won't let you. [/B][/QUOTE]


Good case, I agree with JR all the way on this one.

[Hawks Coach]

If a toss is bad, it is bad before it reaches its apex (except in an outdoor game with high wind conditions ). I agree with cmatthews, there was no legal touch because the ball was dead before it was touched due to the bad toss. The whistle doesn't make it so, it just lets everybody know about it. The time should still be 8:00.

Not sure about whether I like using JR's rule in this case. The question is whether or not this is a timing error. I believe that if the ball has yet to be legally touched, we would put the time back. Antoher example of this would be on an inbounds play. Ref tries to call 5 seconds, had whistle in hand because coach was asking him a question, ball is released, whistle is late, ball is touched, 2 seconds runs off the clock. If there were 2.2 seconds left in this scenario and you called 5 seconds, and now 0.2 shows on the clock, aren't you going to put time back on. The ball was legally touched inbounds before the whistle, but it was in fact dead before the whistle and touched after it was dead. That is the same as this jump ball scenario.

JR's rule does lead to a decent result from a getting started perspective. We can waste time putting the 4 seconds back on, or we can toss and play as JR says the rules would have us do. And since we have 32:00 or 31:56 to play, I don't think it matters as much as an end-of-game timing scenario.

[Stan]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


And since we have 32:00 or 31:56 to play, I don't think it matters as much as an end-of-game timing scenario. [/B]

It might make a difference in the OT periods. Assuming you've done everything to prevent the OT.

Thanks, Stan

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Although it isn't in the rule or casebooks....

The Official's Manual says in paragraph 212:
If the toss is poor, either official shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump.

None of us are quick enough to get our whistles back into our mouths and "signal that the clock should not start" and timers are not quick enough to recognize such a situation and not start the clock. Soooo, with this guidance I would have to assume that we should put the clock back into the condition it was before it started - reset time.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If a toss is bad, it is bad before it reaches its apex...

We already disagree.

Anywho....
Where does it say a BAD toss = an ILLEGAL toss?
Where does it say to replace the time elapsed?
What if there's a foul...ignore it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Although it isn't in the rule or casebooks....

The Official's Manual says in paragraph 212:
If the toss is poor, either official shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump.

None of us are quick enough to get our whistles back into our mouths and "signal that the clock should not start" and timers are not quick enough to recognize such a situation and not start the clock. Soooo, with this guidance I would have to assume that we should put the clock back into the condition it was before it started - reset time.

However, in this play the U1 did signal the clock to be started, making these instructions irrelevant. ANd properly causing time to come off that can't be put back on.

[Hawks Coach]

Dan
Where do you get that interp of the sitch or the casebook? sitch never says U1 signalled, nor does the casebook specifically address an improper signal for the clock to start.

If the U1 improperly signals the clock to start on the front end of a two-shot foul when B1 jumps in and rebounds it, is that not able to be fixed simply because U1 improperly signalled the clock to start? How about U1 chops clock on a fake inbounds pass, then there is a five second count, and 3 seconds ran off the clock. This is now not a timing error by the timer so it can't be fixed? That's kind of silly if you ask me.

Common sense says the clock doesn't start on a bad toss. The Official's Manual backs that up. why fight it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Dan
Where do you get that interp of the sitch or the casebook? sitch never says U1 signalled, nor does the casebook specifically address an improper signal for the clock to start.

If the U1 improperly signals the clock to start on the front end of a two-shot foul when B1 jumps in and rebounds it, is that not able to be fixed simply because U1 improperly signalled the clock to start? How about U1 chops clock on a fake inbounds pass, then there is a five second count, and 3 seconds ran off the clock. This is now not a timing error by the timer so it can't be fixed? That's kind of silly if you ask me.

Common sense says the clock doesn't start on a bad toss. The Official's Manual backs that up. why fight it?

In Mick's case U1 (and U2 if there) obviously were happy with the toss, so U1 signalled on the touch per rule. Which means the timer properly started the clock. In your other cases the signal is made in error and counter to rule: ball dead after first of 2 FTs - timer error, clock starts on touch on throw-in - timer error.

There is simply no rule that allows us to put time back on the clock in the case of a late whistled bad toss. You might not like it but that is the case, and common sense has nothing to do with it. If it were the case the rules would say so & we would know what to do with points scored & fouls committed during the time that came off in error.

[Hawks Coach]

No, in Mick's case the ref was bumped while tossing the ball, and the ball went askew. Nowhere does it say the ref was happy with the toss. The U thinking the toss is OK is not in the post, but even if it was it has nothing to do with it. It was a bad toss, whistled late. The ball was never properly live, never legally touched, the clock was improperly started.

This is really a rare kind of case anyway, but could happen and the book tells you what to do. If you choose to ignore it for convenience or whatever other reason, it's not the technically right thing but it's your game - call it your way. And this won't make a whole lot fo difference.

I'd also like your answers on my other clock shouldn't have started cases and your justification for the answers. How are they different or are they?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

... It was a bad toss, whistled late...

Agree

...The ball was never properly live, never legally touched, the clock was improperly started...

Disagree, and I'll ask you again to show where in the rules there is support for this. That's all.

If you choose to ignore it for convenience or whatever other reason, it's not the technically right thing but it's your game - call it your way.

You keep saying this but you have yet to prove it by rule, case play, a.r. or memo.

I'd also like your answers on my other clock shouldn't have started cases and your justification for the answers. How are they different or are they?

I did this already. In both cases the clock is started in error counter to rule. In Mick's case the clock is started on the touch & the ball is whistled dead 4 seconds later for a bad toss. The rules allow us to rejump (explicitely) but not restart the game.