Technical Free

[just another ref]

This specific thing is covered in the Simplified and Illustrated book. (and nowhere else as far as I know)
Page 55 8-3 (A1).....legally enters to attempt one or both of the free throws. [b]The replaced starter may not return until after the clock has run following the last free throw.

[Jurassic Referee]

Thanks, JAR. I never thought of taking a look in there. I should have.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Thanks, JAR. I never thought of taking a look in there. I should have.

This is our first year to be given this book. I did not know it existed. Some of it, I think, is oversimplified, but we have found several things in it that we could not find anywhere else.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Effectively, the infraction which drew the technical foul started the game. Once it has begun, substitutions are allowed...

This is the detail that had escaped me. The game started with the infraction, not the free throws. So when B1 leaves, and B6 enters, that is just a substitution like any other. Only question I have is, why bother changing the designated starters in the score book, then?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by just another ref
[B]This specific thing is covered in the Simplified and Illustrated book. (and nowhere else as far as I know)
Page 55 8-3 (A1).....legally enters to attempt one or both of the free throws. The replaced starter may not return until after the clock has run following the last free throw.

Wow! Thanks for pointing that out JAR. There is now no disputing that this is how the NFHS interprets the play.

Interesting that they chose to use the words "replaced started" as JR does instead of saying "changed" as that is the word used in 3-2-2a.

I must say, however, that I firmly believe that this understanding does not fit with the current rules as they are written. I think that the NFHS only gave this play a cursory thought and that they tricked themselves. The precise reading of the rules and definitions that Hawks Coach and I have outlined above shows why they goofed. Specifically, that this team member does not meet the definition of a player, since the game doesn't start until the ball becomes live.

I can accept that this is the way the NFHS wants the play called, but then I must insist that they need to amend their rules. MTD, please send a copy of this thread to the NFHS!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
there is no penalty for bench personnel having wrong numbers or duplicate numbers

Hawks Coach,
After taking a look at 3.2.2 Situation B, you may wish to amend this statement.

[Nevadaref]

I had another thought on this ruling.
If a coach submits his team's designated starters to the scorer at the 15 minute mark, and the changes all of them at the 14 minute mark, may he change them back at the 12 minute mark?
I believe that the rules would allow this without penalty, but that the play in the simplified and illustrated book indicates that the original designated starters would not be allowed to come in until time runs off the clock.
This is a problem.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

This is the detail that had escaped me. The game started with the infraction, not the free throws. So when B1 leaves, and B6 enters, that is just a substitution like any other. Only question I have is, why bother changing the designated starters in the score book, then?

Juulie,
It is important that you don't believe what is written above. The truth is that the game starts when the ball first becomes live.
Casebook play 6.3.1 Sit A deals with T's before the game. It states, "The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1's technical foul." While it doesn't specify the part about the live ball, it makes it perfectly clear that the game does NOT start with the infraction which drew the T.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Juulie,
It is important that you don't believe what is written above. The truth is that the game starts when the ball first becomes live.
Casebook play 6.3.1 Sit A deals with T's before the game. It states, "The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1's technical foul." While it doesn't specify the part about the live ball, it makes it perfectly clear that the game does NOT start with the infraction which drew the T.

Nevada -- I'm going to suspend judgment until I hear again from Camron. He's extremely busy at the moment, but I know he'll be checking in again soon.

Camron -- Do you have a reference, interp, or ruling from somewhere to back you up?

[Hawks Coach]

juulie
I have to say that I disagree with Camron on this issue of the game starting when the offense occurs. There is a narrowly written exception in the rules that allows one team to bring one or more new starter(s) to attempt technical FTs. That team cannot substitute freely, nor can its opponent substitute at this point. All other designated starters remain the same until the ball is at disposal for the shooting of the first tech FT. At that point, the ball is live and it seems that either team could substitute.

The extreme example would be that A1 has ball at disposal, Coach A calls TO, Coach B subs out of the TO. That seems to me the earliest that subs are allowed by rule.

[JeffTheRef]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
. . . the simplified and illustrated book indicates that the original designated starters would not be allowed to come in until time runs off the clock.
This is a problem.

My impression of the simplified and illustrated book (current value of impression in open market = $0000.00) is that it is crudely thought out and edited . . . I wouldn't take anything asserted there as having the credibilty of a casebook ruling . . .

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Nevada -- I'm going to suspend judgment until I hear again from Camron. He's extremely busy at the moment, but I know he'll be checking in again soon.

Camron -- Do you have a reference, interp, or ruling from somewhere to back you up?

They are actually correct. That is why I said "Effectively". It has not technically started until ball is at the FTers disposal.