BillyMac dream come true

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Touched by a defender, either inside, or outside, the three point line, is easy. Three points.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Doesn't matter (NFHS) inside, or outside, for a defender, still three points.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This was just a cross-court attempted a pass that was deflected by the defender in front and then went in the basket. So yes, it matters at least by the NF description.

NFHS 5-2-A: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three- point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

NFHS rule citation doesn't mention a ball touching a defender inside the arc (or outside the arc) as negating three points.

No NFHS rule language about the direction of the original pass, unlike the NCAA language.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... at the NCAA level they even say that it must be a pass toward the basket on some level ...

[Nevadaref]

The NFHS has made it clear through play rulings that the thrown ball must have a chance to enter the basket on its own prior to any deflection in order to count for three points. Recall the case play in which the shot comes down several feet short, strikes a defender in the shoulder, bounces up and into the goal. The ruling is only two points.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS has made it clear through play rulings that the thrown ball must have a chance to enter the basket on its own prior to any deflection in order to count for three points. Recall the case play in which the shot comes down several feet short, strikes a defender in the shoulder, bounces up and into the goal. The ruling is only two points.

Did they take that casebook play out? I remember that as well.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three- point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

NFHS rule citation doesn't mention a ball touching a defender inside the arc (or outside the arc) as negating three points.

No NFHS rule language about the direction of the original pass, unlike the NCAA language.

Funny you did not read or show 5.2.1 Situation B which clearly states there was an "Alley-oop" type pass.

With 2:24 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes the backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5.

Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless whether the ball is thrown was an actual try for goal.

To me this suggests it is a throw at least at the goal. That is not what happened in this play at Minnesota at all.

Peace

[BillyMac]

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Comments On The 2001-02 Revisions
Three point basket clarified. Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed, or shot from beyond the three point arc that passes through a team’s own basket. Where in most situations a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS has made it clear through play rulings that the thrown ball must have a chance to enter the basket on its own prior to any deflection in order to count for three points. Recall the case play in which the shot comes down several feet short, strikes a defender in the shoulder, bounces up and into the goal. The ruling is only two points.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did they take that casebook play out? I remember that as well.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Check this out:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ee-points.html

There's a lot to digest here, including a ruling by IAABO that contradicts itself (I'm am perfectly aware that few Forum members belong to IAABO).

I have to leave for Christmas dinner at my daughter's house, but I'll be back to comment later, and possibly eat crow if I have any appetite left.

[BillyMac]

4.41.4 Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did they take that casebook play out?

4.41.4 Situation B is still in the current casebook.

4.41.4 Situation B seems clear and easy enough to understand (two points), but it deals with only a try, not a pass, and does a great job of interpreting when the try ends (when it is certain the try is unsuccessful), thus, I agree with it (two points), but only in the case of a try (not a pass).

The NFHS had made it very clear over that past twenty-one years that one can score three points from a pass as well as a try.

And passes don't automatically end when they fall "below ring level" (as trys do).

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Comments On The 2001-02 Revisions
Three point basket clarified. Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed, or shot from beyond the three point arc that passes through a team’s own basket. Where in most situations a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Nowhere in 5.2.1 SITUATION C does the NFHS stipulate that the situation is a try, so it can be a pass, a pass that can be touched both inside and outside the three point arc by both offensive and defensive players.

While the main intent of 5.2.1 SITUATION C was probably to allow a common occurrence, defender with inside-the-three-point-arc-status to attempt a block and deflect a try from inside the arc and still count it as three points if successful; however the caseplay never states that this is a try, thus it could be a pass.

This caseplay also doesn’t state anything about the possibility of this pass (or try) being “on target”.

4.41.4 Situation B does state something about the possibility of a try being “on target”, but specifically for a try, not a pass.

If a try hits another player on the head and goes in, I've got two points (based on 4.41.4 Situation B), no matter if it's an offensive or defensive player, either inside or outside the three point arc.

If a pass hits another player on the head and goes in (based on 5.2.1 SITUATION C), I'm probably counting it as two points or three points depending on offensive or defensive players, either inside or outside the three point arc.

Bottom line, the NFHS needs to do a much better job of interpreting situations like these described in this thread, especially regarding deflections, possibly "expanding" 4.41.4 Situation B to account for both trys and passes.

Maybe things were better back in ancient times, simpler times when all the women were strong, all the men were good-looking, and all the children were above average, when officials had to use judgement and differentiate between a three point try and an alley oop pass?

[Nevadaref]

A try that has ended is merely a thrown ball. If that can be ruled only worth two points by the NFHS, so can a pass because a pass is merely a ball thrown to another player.

The NFHS change years ago was to instruct officials when it was unclear whether a thrown ball was a try or a pass. If one couldn’t tell, then it counted the same as a 3-point try. However, if the thrown ball was clearly a pass and had no chance of entering the goal without another touch, then it could only be worth two points.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A try that has ended is merely a thrown ball. If that can be ruled only worth two points by the NFHS, so can a pass because a pass is merely a ball thrown to another player.

Yeah. I see your point. I also looked at the definition of a pass, specifically how a pass ends (not as well defined by the NFHS as a try ending).

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

I still say that the deflected pass situation is, at best, unclear, and I would definitely not bet my house that I am correct below.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If a pass hits another player on the head and goes in (based on 5.2.1 SITUATION C), I'm probably counting it as two points or three points depending on offensive or defensive players, either inside or outside the three point arc.

I contend that we have "somewhat" dueling casebook plays.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.41.4 Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Even the IAABO "Gang of Four" co-international-interpreters, interpreters for 15,000 officials, a very astute group of highly experienced, rule-knowledgeable officials, seemed flummoxed, uncertain, unsure, and "wishy washy" explaining their deflected pass play interpretation ruling of three points, seemingly contradicting their own (three point) ruling.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...njA0tUOaZD.mp4

IAABO International Play Commentary: Correct Answer: This is a three point goal. In this play, three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown by A1 from behind the three-point line. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal. (Casebook 5.2.1 Situation C) ... It should be further noted that there is another scenario in the NFHS casebook that would be handled differently than what is outlined in the play above. 4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1's three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1) So in a case when it is obvious that a try was unsuccessful that gets deflected into the basket, under NFHS rules, it would be considered a 2-point goal.