Fun With Two Or Three Points ...

BillyMac · #1 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 03:56pm

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...njA0tUOaZD.mp4

Does this get scored 2 or 3 points? Observe the play and make a determination as to whether this should be ruled a two point or a three point goal. Give rules support for your answer.

Two choices: This is a three point goal. This is a two point goal.

My comment: This is a three point goal. Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

BillyMac · #2 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 04:00pm

5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Zoochy · #3 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 04:49pm

This was NEVER a Try. The 'Pass' was never above the rim until it was deflected by a defender. Thus ONLY 2 Points.

Don't confuse this with a lob pass (Ally-Oop), from behind the 3-point line, towards the rim that goes untouched into the basket. Even though the intent was a lob pass it is deemed a try, thus 3-points

BillyMac · #4 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 05:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy

This was NEVER a Try. The 'Pass' was never above the rim until it was deflected by a defender. Thus ONLY 2 Points.

Maybe thirty years ago when, initially, the three points had to come from a legal try, but the rule was changed after that due to infamous and controversial alley-oop passes.

A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points.

A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

In this video, the ball touched none of these, rather the ball touched a defensive player, no different (except one's a try, and the other is a pass) than a defender who is standing inside the arc deflecting (blocking) a try (or any thrown ball) from behind the arc.

Do not confuse this situation with the similar one where the horn sounds before the deflected passed ball (initially with no chance to go in) enters the basket, not a try, don't count it, not even for two points.

5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (b) B1 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 06:19pm

This is a two-point basket. It was never the intent of the rule IMO. This was clearly not even an attempt to put the ball at the basket. I get what the interpretation might suggest if you take it completely out of context, but this to me just one of these times when they cannot cover all situations perfectly.

Peace

Rich · #6 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 06:31pm

Billy's right.

Like it or not, by rule this is a 3-point basket.

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JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 06:47pm

What is the intent and purpose of the rule? That is the answer.

Peace

Rich · #8 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 06:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is the intent and purpose of the rule? That is the answer.

Peace

The word throw is in the damned rule.

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BillyMac · #9 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 06:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is the intent and purpose of the rule?

Initially, JRutledge would be correct.

But that was over thirty years go, back when Whitney Houston's "How Will I Know" was a big hit, but interpretations have changed over that length of time, and Miss Houston is no longer with us.

Read the rule, read the casebook play.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 07:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Initially, JRutledge would be correct.

But that was over thirty years go, back when Whitney Houston's "How Will I Know" was a big hit, but interpretations have changed over that length of time.

Read the rule, read the casebook play.

I did read the rule and the casebook. And I was around when this interpretation changed. It was always meant for an alley-opp kind of pass that happened to go in the basket. Just like I asked the NCAA Editor about their backcourt rule and the casebook and all interpretations said a play that happened in the WVU-Gonzaga game early in the season. And it took me (I am sure someone else contacted them but they did respond) to realize that the rule they had written did not cover a situation that happened in that game. Even Art Hyland told me this in an email and said that the intent and purpose of the rule was to not cover a situation where the ball is deflected in the backcourt when the rule says only the frontcourt the rule applies.

Only #1 Play.

According to the NCAA Rule, is a backcourt violation because there is no mention of a deflection from the backcourt that results in touch to the frontcourt. But after further review, the Rules Editor had to realize that they did not think of every possible situation and put something out to make clear that this should not be a violation. I feel like the very same thing is happening in this video you posted Billy. The ball was not going anywhere near the basket and was clearly altered to go up to the basket.

It really does not matter, because this is not a common thing. But I am not giving 3 points if I am the ruling official.

Peace

JRutledge · #11 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 07:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

The word throw is in the damned rule.

I understand all of that, but what was the intent of the rule when they changed this? What were the examples they gave?

Peace

Rich · #12 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 07:09pm

Off topic much, Rut?

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JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 07:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Off topic much, Rut?

I'm giving an analogy. And I think it applies here. The problem is the NF does not have one voice on many of these things and often sends us to our state to give an interpretation.

And you never seem to worry about other conversations where things are way off topic. So why worry about my position now?

Peace

johnny d · #14 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 10:35pm

No way I am awarding 3 points on this play. First, as JRut says, that is not the intent of the rule. Second, I will use the following contradictory case play if the coach insists this should count as 3 points.

A1's three-point try is short and below the ring level when it hits the shoulder of B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: the three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored.

BillyMac · #15 (**permalink**) Tue May 18, 2021, 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d

A1's three-point try is short and below the ring level when it hits the shoulder of B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: the three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored.

Nice citation johnny d. Thanks.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

However:

5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (b) B1 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

And we have this rule citation:

A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Nothing about a defender inside the arc.

This situation is no longer as cut and dry as I originally believed.

Can we all agree that, unlike the original rule from thirty years ago, a three point basket no longer has to be a legal try, but could be a pass?