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Fun With An Elbow To The Throat ...
Low Post Contact - is there a foul on this play? Is there a foul? Who should be charged? Does the Lead official have a good angle on the play?
https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...4gaKHDvw%3D%3D Two choices: This is a team control foul. This is incidental contact - play on! My comment: This is a team control foul. Black #44 throws an elbow to the throat of White #30.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) |
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Just call an illegal ward off and move on. I have no idea if there was any contact with the head or neck area, but she clearly pushes off to gain space with her arm. Call the illegal ward off and you do not have to worry about calling anything else IMO based on what we see.
Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Above The Shoulders ???
IAABO makes it easy, only two choices: This is a team control foul. This is incidental contact - play on!
But I did give half a thought to an "above the shoulders" situation. Notice how White #30's head is thrown backward (don't think she's trying to win an Academy Award here). Just sayin'.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 11:31am. |
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Elbow To The Throat ...
Quote:
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 12:29pm. |
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For The Good Of The Cause ...
Quote:
Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties. 1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul. 2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul. 3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 12:54pm. |
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Quote:
IMO, the NCAA-M (and perhaps the W) have it right. If it is a basketball play with normal movements, it is not to be ruled intentional.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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Get On The Concussion Bandwagon ...
Quote:
My high school interpretation, I would, at least, consider a moving elbow to the throat an intentional foul. Also, stupid NFHS (eight year old Point of Emphasis that never made its way into the rulebook, or casebook).
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 02:39pm. |
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Again I see no such action to the throat. I see a normal ward off of a post player. Call the foul and it will stop. No need to prove you know some obscure POE that each year gets further and further away from what might have been intended at the time. Again we have had intentional fouls a few times because a POE since that time and nothing was mentioned about what to do specifically with contact above the shoulders. So when they put some language I might consider that fact, but pushing someone off as normal should be nothing but a common or team control foul in this case. It is not that complicated.
Even the NCAA does a better job addressing this kind of post play as well, tell us what is allowed and what is not allowed. But we know the NF would make things so much easier if they did, so they will not address this at all. Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Looks Like ...
Watch White #30's head snap back (I don't believe that she's acting). Yes, it could be due to an elbow into her upper chest, and yes, we don't get a good look at the actual point contact because of the angle of the video (White #30's right arm is in the way), but if it looks like an elbow to the throat, swims like an elbow to the throat, and quacks like an elbow to the throat, then it may be an elbow to the throat (not certain, but I think that is was).
For sake of argument, if, indeed, it really was an actual elbow to the throat, should we, at least, consider an intentional foul in a high school game? And if it's actually not an elbow to the throat, then my point (illegal contact above the shoulders) is moot.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 03:20pm. |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Obscure Eight Year Old Point Of Emphasis ...
Quote:
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 04:07pm. |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Contact Above The Shoulders ...
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Sure, lots of chances to call a foul here, but none were called. I'm just referring to the contact that caused her head to snap back (no whistle in the video). Yes, the current NFHS rulebbok (and casebook) doesn't specifically (excessive contact above the shoulder situations) call for an intentional foul here (unless one deems it excessive contact), but there was a Point of Emphasis in 2012-13 that told us specifically what to do with moving elbows causing contact above the shoulders. Did the NFHS only want these "guidelines" enforced for that one year? I doubt it. How long did they expect these "guidelines" to be enforced? Two years? Five years? More? Probably until there's a new relevant or pertinent rule, or a new relevant or pertinent interpretation, or a new relevant or pertinent Point of Emphasis. Or relevant or pertinent rules (or interpretations) changed to make these "guidelines" null and void. Does the NFHS still want high school officials to enforce these "guidelines"? Not sure, but leaning yes. How are officials with less than eight years of experience supposed to know about these "guidelines"? Experienced trainers (but that's a weak answer, the NFHS dropped the ball on this one). Have any relevant or pertinent rules (or interpretations) changed over the years to make these "guidelines" null and void? I don't believe so. Has the NFHS decided that it no longer wants (or needs) to reduce concussions and decrease excessive contact above the shoulder situations? I doubt it. Does the NCAA do a better job adjudicating excessive contact above the shoulder situations? I've heard yes, but I don't "work" for the NCAA and I like to wait until NCAA interpretations "officially" trickle down to the high school level (as they often do) and want to avoid jumping the gun. Stupid NFHS.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 12, 2021 at 04:15pm. |
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First Contact ...
Agree.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) |
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