sub

[bbman]

Sub not in the book.
Upon entering during a dead ball, table signals ref about the player not being in the book. Coach has 2 options. Withdraw the sub back to the bench or allow in with T. What, if any, would be the call if this same player is allowed in, plays for a few minutes, then it's discovered that he is not in the book?
Rule 4-34-3 states that he's now legal.
Rule 10-1-2b states penalize with T.

Thanks in advance

[JRutledge]

Casebook 3.2.2. Situation C covers this.

If the player comes into the game, their number must be added which would result in a technical foul. If they never come into the game or beckoned, then they would not be subject to the rule as I understand it.

Bottom line they have to enter the game. If they never enter the game, then they will not be assessed a technical foul like if it was halftime for example.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Casebook 3.2.2. Situation C covers this.

Nice citation JRutledge.

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)

Remember that there are no "players" during intermissions, just bench personnel.

[FlasherZ]

Originally Posted by bbman

Sub not in the book.
Upon entering during a dead ball, table signals ref about the player not being in the book. Coach has 2 options. Withdraw the sub back to the bench or allow in with T. What, if any, would be the call if this same player is allowed in, plays for a few minutes, then it's discovered that he is not in the book?
Rule 4-34-3 states that he's now legal.
Rule 10-1-2b states penalize with T.

Thanks in advance

The case book citation covers your question, but I have one for you in the original scenario...

Did the beckoning official give the coach the option to withdraw the player? My recollection is that once the unlisted player reports and the official beckons the player onto the court, the deed has been done and results in a technical foul (as JRutledge pointed out). Curious where the coach is getting his option?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

... once the unlisted player reports and the official beckons the player onto the court, the deed has been done and results in a technical foul ...

Agree.

Until I started officiating forty-plus years ago, I don't think that I ever used the term "beckon" in real everyday life. Now I depend on using the word all the time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

... once the unlisted player reports and the official beckons the player onto the court, the deed has been done and results in a technical foul ...

4-34 Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members:
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.

3-2 Rosters, Starters, Numbers:
ART. 2 The substitute must remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she must enter immediately.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.

10-3-2 Substitute Technical: A substitute must not enter the court: Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and during time-outs.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

... once the unlisted player reports and the official beckons the player onto the court, the deed has been done and results in a technical foul ...

Of course, on the rare chance that the unlisted substitute illegally enters the court due to not being beckoned, said substitute doesn't become a "player" until the ball becomes live, so depending on when it's discovered that he is unlisted, there could be small window of opportunity to send the unlisted substitute back to the bench with no penalty.

4-34-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

3-2-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

[BillyMac]

10-3-2 Substitute Technical: A substitute must not enter the court: Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and during time-outs.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, on the rare chance that the unlisted substitute illegally enters the court due to not being beckoned ...

Some may argue that this is an "automatic" technical foul. Yet, how often do we just give the unbeckoned entering substitute who takes a few steps onto the court the "stop sign" and send him back unpenalized?

Situations like when we're still in the process of reporting a foul to the table? Or about to notify a coach that one of his players has just been disqualified? Or after the warning horn has sounded? Or while the ball is at the disposal of an inbounder, or a free throw shooter?

Many middle school players (and few high school players) believe that the "horn" gets them into the game and don't wait to be beckoned.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Situations like when we're still in the process of reporting a foul to the table? Or about to notify a coach that one of his players has just been disqualified? Or after the warning horn has sounded? Or while the ball is at the disposal of an inbounder, or a free throw shooter?

Or maybe this:

3-3-2: … If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld.

Not sure what the time frame is here, but I guess that we'll all know it when we see it.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by bbman

Sub not in the book.
Upon entering during a dead ball, table signals ref about the player not being in the book. Coach has 2 options. Withdraw the sub back to the bench or allow in with T. What, if any, would be the call if this same player is allowed in, plays for a few minutes, then it's discovered that he is not in the book?
Rule 4-34-3 states that he's now legal.
Rule 10-1-2b states penalize with T.

Thanks in advance

I had a similar but not exactly the same situation happen. Coming out of a time-out, Team A attempted to substitute a player who maxed out the allowable amount of quarters player per a state rule. The scorer notified me just as the 15 second warning went off. The coach over heard it and asked me his options to avoid the T. I let him call another timeout and sub the player who maxed out their playing time.