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Old Tue Nov 01, 2022, 10:18am
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Rush Onto The Court ...

Another problem question from the 2022-23 IAABO Refresher Exam:

61) With Team B leading 51 to 50, Team A scores with eight seconds left in the game. A-6 and A-7 rush onto the court to congratulate the shooter. This occurs while B-1 is trying to complete a throw-in to B-2. The official rules one technical foul against Team A, awards Team B two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in. Is this correct?

10-2-2: A team shall not: Have more than five team players participating simultaneously.


One team technical foul, not two individual technical fouls, right?
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Old Wed Nov 02, 2022, 04:35pm
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Bench Technical ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
61) With Team B leading 51 to 50, Team A scores with eight seconds left in the game. A-6 and A-7 rush onto the court to congratulate the shooter. This occurs while B-1 is trying to complete a throw-in to B-2. The official rules one technical foul against Team A, awards Team B two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in. Is this correct? 10-2-2: A team shall not: Have more than five team players participating simultaneously. One team technical foul, not two individual technical fouls, right?
Why isn't this rule (below) utilized? Or should it be?

10-5-2: Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player. Penalty: The officials must warn the head coach unless the offense is judge to be major, in which case a technical foul must be ruled. Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throwin. If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged indirectly to the head coach.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Nov 02, 2022 at 05:34pm.
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Old Wed Nov 02, 2022, 05:37pm
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Citation ...

The only citation given by IAABO for question #61 is 10-2-2.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 10:51am
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Decisions, Decisions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The only citation given by IAABO for question #61 is 10-2-2.
Keep in mind that this is an IAABO exam with an IAABO interpretation citation.

As a purely NFHS question, with no citation as a "hint", how does one decide between a 10-5-2 Bench Technical or 10-2-2 Team Technical?

Penalties are slightly different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
61) With Team B leading 51 to 50, Team A scores with eight seconds left in the game. A-6 and A-7 rush onto the court to congratulate the shooter. This occurs while B-1 is trying to complete a throw-in to B-2. The official rules one technical foul against Team A, awards Team B two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in. Is this correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
10-5-2: Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player. Penalty: The officials must warn the head coach unless the offense is judge to be major, in which case a technical foul must be ruled. Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throwin. If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged indirectly to the head coach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
10-2-2: A team shall not: Have more than five team players participating simultaneously.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Nov 03, 2022 at 10:59am.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 11:41am
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Put the 2 rules side-by-side. Then think back over your 40 years of officiating about which rule is something we as officials always try to prevent from being violated b/c we tend to blame ourselves when it happens.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 11:53am
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Six Players ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Put the 2 rules side-by-side. Then think back over your 40 years of officiating about which rule is something we as officials always try to prevent from being violated b/c we tend to blame ourselves when it happens.
Allowing six players on the court? I hate it when I hear about that happening.

I always tell my partner that if I'm the administering official on a throwin after a timeout, intermission, or substitution (or any stoppage in play), that I'm going to take my time to “sweep the floor”, including counting five players each team and looking at the table for substitutes.

I also tell my partner that if I'm not the administering official (the "off official") on a throwin after a timeout, intermission, or substitution, that my hand up in the air means I'm not ready, so, of course, we're not ready.

But this isn't after a timeout, intermission, or substitution, nor could it in any way be considered the fault of the officials.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Nov 03, 2022 at 02:16pm.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 02:01pm
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This is a substitute technical foul under 10-3, because the extra players are not participating. Because two players illegally enter the court, there are two separate offenses, and thus B would receive 4 free throws and possession.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 02:08pm
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Third Choice ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is a substitute technical foul under 10-3, because the extra players are not participating. Because two players illegally enter the court, there are two separate offenses, and thus B would receive 4 free throws and possession.
10-3: Substitute Technical: A substitute must not enter the court:
Art. 1 Without reporting to the scorer.
Art. 2 Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and during time-outs.
Penalty: Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live.

10.3.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Great. Now we have three choices. Thank God IAABO gave members the 10-2-2 citation reference "hint".

But it's only IAABO, not the NFHS.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Nov 03, 2022 at 02:17pm.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is a substitute technical foul under 10-3, because the extra players are not participating. Because two players illegally enter the court, there are two separate offenses, and thus B would receive 4 free throws and possession.
We're talking about bench personnel running spontaneously onto the court during a live ball, not a sub who comes in the game prematurely.

Instead of A6 & A7, let's make it 2 assistant coaches.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 02:51pm
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Bench Personnel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Instead of A6 & A7, let's make it 2 assistant coaches.
Great point.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 08:00pm
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A6 and A7 are team members. Therefore, their entry onto the court can be considered illegal substitution. If assistant coaches illegally entered the court, their actions would fall under the bench personnel rules, they would each be charged a technical foul, and the head coach would receive two indirect technical fouls. B would shoot 4 free throws and get possession.
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Old Thu Nov 03, 2022, 08:56pm
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Answer hasnt changed from the two times you've previously started a thread on this
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Old Fri Nov 04, 2022, 03:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
A6 and A7 are team members. Therefore, their entry onto the court can be considered illegal substitution. If assistant coaches illegally entered the court, their actions would fall under the bench personnel rules, they would each be charged a technical foul, and the head coach would receive two indirect technical fouls. B would shoot 4 free throws and get possession.
That is not correct for several reasons.

These team members were not entering the court with the intent of becoming players as would be the case for an illegal substitution.

Substitution occur at specific points in the game. If it is not a point where a substitution could legally occur, the players coming onto the court can't violation the substitution rule. Those 2 articles cover a player coming out of a timeout/intermission without reporting the substitution to a scorer or a player sitting at the table when a whistle blows that enters the court without being beckoned...that is it.

Substitution infractions are a technical on the substitute and not an indirect on the coach...largely because their actions are not really under the control of the coach.

These are team members, and just like other bench personnel, can't just run onto the court during play. Team members that enter the court without permission are covered under bench personnel and lead to an indirect on the coach.

These are not players creating a situation with more than 5 participating...they're not players...they're bench personnel.

The proper penalty is for bench personnel entering the court. They don't want us calling 10 T's if 10 team members enter the court in a situation like this and ejecting the coach, just 1 on the team and 1 indirect to the coach (unless the coach was an offender).
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Old Fri Nov 04, 2022, 06:31am
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This is from NCAAW -- note the under NCAAW, the rule is only enforced if the actions interfere with play; in NFHS, it's enforced regardless:

A.R. 339. Team B leads, 67-66� A1’s two-point try for goal is successful, but
there is no indication that time has expired� Assuming that the successful try is
a game-ending and winning goal:
(1) Bench personnel from Team A; or
(2) Fans from Team A go onto the playing court to celebrate�
RULING: When the celebration causes a delay by preventing the ball
from being promptly made live or prevents continuous play:
(1) One bench technical foul shall be assessed to the offending team
and counts toward the team-foul total. This technical foul is also
charged indirectly to the head coach and counts toward the coach’s
ejection. Any Team B member shall attempt two free throws and play
shall resume with a throw-in by Team B at a designated spot at the
division line opposite the scorers' table.
(2) An administrative technical foul shall be assessed to the offending
team. This administrative technical foul does not apply to the team-
foul total. Any Team B member shall attempt the two free throws and
play shall resume at the point of interruption.
When the celebration does not delay or interfere with play, the
celebration shall be ignored.
(Rules 10-12.2.h.4 and Penalty and 10-12.4.g and Penalty)
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Old Fri Nov 04, 2022, 09:47am
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Extrapolated To High School Game ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
NCAAW ... A.R. 339. Team B leads, 67-66. A1’s two-point try for goal is successful, but there is no indication that time has expired. Assuming that the successful try is a game-ending and winning goal: Bench personnel from Team A go onto the playing court to celebrate; RULING: When the celebration causes a delay by preventing the ball from being promptly made live or prevents continuous play: One bench technical foul shall be assessed to the offending team and counts toward the team-foul total. This technical foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach and counts toward the coach’s ejection. Any Team B member shall attempt two free throws and play shall resume with a throw-in by Team B at a designated spot at the division line opposite the scorers' table. When the celebration does not delay or interfere with play, the celebration shall be ignored.
If this can be extrapolated to a NFHS high school game, it sounds more like a 10-5-2 Bench Technical (bench personnel must not enter the court unless by permission of an official, penalty includes an indirect technical foul to the head coach) than a 10-2-2 Team Technical (more than five participating, penalty does not include an indirect technical foul to the head coach).

I don't yet have the IAABO Refresher Exam answer sheet, but the reference citation sheet given to study group members by IAABO points to 10-2-2 Team Technical.

IAABO Refresher Exams are always based on NFHS rules and interpretations. I wonder if this is an IAABO error? It happens almost every year.

bob jenkins (and other Forum members): How would you rule in a NFHS (not IAABO) high school game? 10-5-2 Bench Technical or 10-2-2 Team Technical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
61) With Team B leading 51 to 50, Team A scores with eight seconds left in the game. A-6 and A-7 rush onto the court to congratulate the shooter. This occurs while B-1 is trying to complete a throw-in to B-2. The official rules one technical foul against Team A, awards Team B two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in. Is this correct?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Nov 04, 2022 at 09:53am.
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