Play The Whistle …

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the horn goes off in the middle of the play, the play is already dead.

Not always. Horn erroneously sounds for a substitute during a clock-running live ball in the first period. I'm waiting to see if the players can play through it. Sometimes they can. Sometime they can't.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You clearly have an inadvertent horn which you can deem affected the play.

Great point. Yes, I can deem the erroneous horn to have affected the play. Did it affect the play? That's the rub. Not sure here. Did the horn disrupt the play, or was it just a bad pass having nothing to do with the horn?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... with two seconds left in tied game (or at the end of any period), I'm probably not waiting to see if the players can play through an erroneous horn. I'm "killing" it as soon as I can after the erroneous horn ...

In this important situation, whether the players are affected by the erroneous horn, or not, I'm "killing" the play, even if my whistle is late.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not always. Horn erroneously sounds for a substitute during a clock-running live ball in the first period. I'm waiting to see if the players can play through it. Sometimes they can. Sometime they can't.

If the horn goes off and there is no time on the clock (and the clock should have started), what are they playing through?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great point. Yes, I can deem the erroneous horn to have affected the play. Did it affect the play? That's the rub. Not sure here. Did the horn disrupt the play, or was it just a bad pass having nothing to do with the horn?

You don't have time on the clock. Where is the rub? What you going to wait until the play is over and then say the game is over?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In this important situation, whether the players are affected by the erroneous horn, or not, I'm "killing" the play, even if my whistle is late.

Again, if they get the ball, the play is over. So not sure why this is so hard to figure out?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the horn goes off and there is no time on the clock (and the clock should have started), what are they playing through?

Though not specifically mentioned, the implication was that the clock improperly started. At least that's how my friend and I read the question.

Theoretically, me mentally counting down the last two seconds, something I have always done at the end of every period for the past forty-plus years.

"Theoretically" because I'm "killing" this specific play and having a do-over.

My high school coaches always taught me to, "Play the whistle, not the horn".

And that was decades before high schools started to consider shot clocks.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Though not specifically mentioned, the implication was that the clock improperly started. At least that's how my friend and I read the question...

I read the play as simply the horn sounded since there was no mention of the clock starting.

If the clock started erroneously and went to 0:00, then I'm starting the throw-in over with time reset, regardless of what the ball did.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the clock started erroneously and went to 0:00, then I'm starting the throw-in over with time reset, regardless of what the ball did.

Agree. I know that there are generally no "do-overs" in high school basketball, but sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do, which is why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

To the new members of the Basketball Forum I apologize in advance for my long comment. The longer tenured members of the Forum are use to my ramblings, LOL!

Billy's play is very similar to a Throw-in Play that was discussed both ad infinitum as well as ad nauseam in the Basketball Forum almost 17.5 years ago.


The original Threads (in chronological order) are:

#1) Clock Start Error [Part I]: The original thread, which was originally posted in November and December 2003, and then somehow was deleted, and the Webmaster cannot find it.

#2) Inbound[i]n[g] play with 2.8 seconds left: A thread started by a new member to the Forums on Dec. 11/Sat., 2004. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...onds-left.html

#3) Timer's Mistake: This thread was started by me on Jan. 30/Fri., 2004; it was a play that I had in my H.S. freshmen game earlier that afternoon. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...s-mistake.html

#4) Clock Start Error--Parts II, III, and etc.: This thread was started by me (for reasons that I can no longer remember, LOL) on Apr. 22/Fri., 2005, and has since been CLOSED by whom I do not remember and for reasons I do not remember, LOL. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...i-iii-etc.html

#5) Clock Start Error--Part IV (Parts II, III, and etc.): This thread was started by me on Jan. 05/Sat., 2020; it was a similar play posted in the Facebook group: Basketball Officials Forum (which has one active NBA Official, past NCAA Men's Rules Editor, and the current NCAA Women's Rules Editor as contributing members. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...i-iii-etc.html


Thread #1 is lost to the mists of Time but Thread #2 was the Thread that was discussed both ad infinitum as well as ad nauseam and is the Thread that we should be using as our reference for the Play being discussed in this Thread.


Point of Information for the newer members of the Basketball Forum: Mary Struckhoff was the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor at the time, making her, in effect, the NFHS Basketball Rules Interpreter.


I sent the following information in an email to Mary Struckhoff on Dec. 12/Sun.(06:08pmEST), 2004 and posted in Thread #2 at Dec. 12/Sun.(06:15pmEST), 2004 in Comment #13:

PLAY: Team B scores a field goal. Team A immediately requests and is granted a team timeout. The game clock is stopped with 2.4 seconds left in the fourth quarter. After the team timeout is over the Trail official places the ball at the disposal of A1. A1 passes the ball to A2 who is also on the out-of-bounds side of the end line in Team A’s backcourt. A2 then releases a pass to A3 who catches the ball in the free throw lane of Team A's front court. The Trail official mistakenly signals the Timer to start the game clock when A2 catches the pass from A1 (instead of signaling the Timer to start the game clock when A3 catches A2's pass). The Timer mistakenly starts the game clock when the Trail official signals for the game clock to be started. Simultaneously with A3 catching A2's passes the game clock’s horn sounds. Upon hearing the game clock horn, the game officials sound their whistles, stopping play. The game officials restarted the game with Team A receiving the ball for a throw-in on the endline in its frontcourt with 2.0 seconds on the game clock.

Did the game officials restart the game correctly? The officiating crew for this game was a two-person crew.

I take the position that the game officials were correct in how they restarted the game, even though I am inclined to reset the clock to 2.4 seconds.

I base my interpretation upon rules references and casebook plays in this year’s NFHS Rules Book and Casebook

[The NFHS Rules and Casebook Situations listed below are from 2004-05 and 2021-22.]

RULES:

R2-S5-A5 [R2-S5-A5]

R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7 (This reference may or may not be germane to this play but they are listed among the Timer's duties.) [R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7]
R5-S8 (I include this entire section because it may or may not be germane to this play, but it lists the Timer's responsibilities regarding stopping the game clock.) [R5-S8]

R5-S9-A1 and A4 [R5-S9-A1 and A4]

R5-S10-A1 and A2 [R5-S10-A1 and A2]


CASEBOOK PLAYS:

5.9.3 [CB Play 5.9.3]

5.9.4 [CB Play 5.9.4]

5.10.1 Situation A [CB Play 5.10.1A]

5.10.1 Situation B, (as well as the Comment)

2004-05 CB Play 5.10.1B: A1 travels. Immediately after the official sounds his whistle and signals the clock to stop, he/he glances at the clock and notices there are three seconds remaining in the quarter. However the timer does not stop the clock and time expires. RULING: The referee will direct that three seconds be put back on the clock since he/she had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.
COMMENT: Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction of the timer which result in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation,, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock. The additional three seconds which subsequently ran off the clock is considered a timing mistake.

CB Play 5.10.1B is not in the 2021-22 NFHS Casebook, but I included referenced it because of its COMMENT.

5.10.1 Situation D (a, b c, and d) [CB Play Situation C (a, b, c, and d)]

5.10.1 Situation E [CB Play 5.10.1D]

5.10.2 [CB Play 5.10.2]



Mary responded to my email on Dec. 16/Thu.(11:32amEST), 2004. She agreed with me that the Officials were correct in where Team A were awarded a Throw-in, but she differed with me in that since the Ball was advanced down the Court, the Game Clock should be reset anywhere from 0:02.2 to 0:02.0.


I assume now that everyone has figured out my position in the Play being discussed in this Thread: Throw-in Violation by A1. Team B is awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in with the Game Clock set at 0:02.0. Billy and Jeff: I share your instinct to kill the Play as soon as the Horn sounded but Mary's response to my email confirms my position that there are no do-overs.

My position in this Thread is the same as in Threads #1 and #2, therefore I will not reprint them here in this Thread but instead recommend that everyone read my comments in Thread #2.

For those that are wondering how this would play out under NCAA Men's and Women's Rules: It is my position that the Ruling would be the same and in NFHS. I am having hip replacement surgery at the end of August so as to be able to resume umpiring H.S. Softball and Special Olympics Basketball for the 2022-23 school year after a five year forced hiatus from officiating/umpiring H.S. basketball (including S.O.), baseball, and softball. Therefore, I am not going to climb up into the attic to go through the 2004-05 NCAA Men's and Women's Rules for the equivalent Rules and Casebook Plays/Approved Rulings because I am just getting too old for that foolishness. And I have already spent too much time on this cross-reference the 2021-22 NCAA Rules and Casebook Plays/Approved Rulings.

Time to go back to watching The Open Championship. Have a great weekend everyone.!

And remember: There are no do-overs in NFHS, NCAA Men's, and NCAA Women's, but something in the deep dark recesses of my memory wants to say that there is a do-over somewhere in NCAA Women's, and I will have to check with Jon Levinson about it.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... Throw-in Play that was discussed both ad infinitum as well as ad nauseam in the Basketball Forum almost 17.5 years ago.

At the risk of making Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s post even longer, just a reminder to everyone that we now have a casebook play regarding ONE of issues in his post from the past.

There is only one very specific situation that I am aware of that allows officials to "guess" or "estimate" (no actual "definite" count of any type) to change the clock.

2009-10 Basketball Rules Interpretations Situation 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. Ruling: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Of course, this caseplay doesn't offer a solution to the Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s issue of the erroneous "chop" (not in this caseplay) by the official and whether the timer should have started the clock, or waited for an inbounds touch.

I do agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. that 5-9-4 (If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock must be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.) "trumps" an erroneous "chop" by an official, even if a part of the rulebook states otherwise, but that, of course, is debatable, and a matter of opinion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Time to go back to watching The Open Championship.

Hey Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Didn't you play a round at the Old Course at Saint Andrews when it first opened in the early 15th century?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... I assume now that everyone has figured out my position in the Play being discussed in this Thread: Throw-in Violation by A1. Team B is awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in with the Game Clock set at 0:02.0. Billy and Jeff: I share your instinct to kill the Play as soon as the Horn sounded but ...

If something really, really weird happens in a game, weird enough to possibly confuse players, coaches, table personnel, or officials, I reserve the right to "kill" the play at anytime to get things straightened out (keeping in mind that the official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, it is already dead).

Anybody that wants to take this right away from me will have to pry my whistle from my cold, dead hands.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I read the play as simply the horn sounded since there was no mention of the clock starting.

Though probably not word for word as written by IAABO University, this (paraphrased below, I didn't record the phone call), is what my friend told me the over the phone, and why we believed that the clock had has erroneously started.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Official resets the game clock to two seconds ...

Remember the game of "Telephone" that we played back in elementary school? By the time the message goes through all the students, it almost always changes.

I don't believe that that happened here. He read me the question word for word over the phone and there definitely was a resetting the clock back to two seconds involved, leading me to believe that the clock erroneously started causing the horn to erroneously sound.