Play The Whistle …

[BillyMac]

Just got a call from an old friend who is getting back into officiating after twenty year absence. Rather than take the local rules classes and exam in the fall, he’s taking his classes and test through IAABO University (it’s true, that’s what they call it).

He called me about this question.

Game clock shows two seconds left in the game. Official hands ball to inbounder A-1 for a throwin. A-1 releases the throwin pass. While the throwin pass is in the air, before being touched by anybody, the game horn erroneously sounds. Inbound passed ball continues, without touching a player, out of bounds. Official resets the game clock to two seconds and puts the ball at the disposal of Team A at the original throwin spot. Is the official correct?

My friend said that the official was correct. In a real heat of the game situation, using common sense, and figuring that the players were distracted by the erroneous horn, I probably would have done the same thing as the official in the question and I probably wouldn't have had to make a coach sit on the team bus in a cold parking lot, or in a smelly locker room.

But is that a "rulebook answer"?

IAABO University said that the official was incorrect, with no explanation.

So, here's my “rulebook” explanation. The game horn erroneously sounding did not cause the ball to become dead. So A-1 threw a “live” inbound pass, untouched by any player, out of bounds, a definite throwin violation. The official game knew that the clock should not have started and had definite knowledge to reset the clock back to two seconds. Due to A-1’s throwin violation, Team B gets the ball at its disposal at the spot of the original throwin.

Then get ready to send an irate coach to the cold bus, or to the smelly locker room.

What says the Forum?

[BillyMac]

IAABO University may need to get re-accredited.

After a successful field goal, before the ball is at the disposal of the non-scoring team, the ball is dead.

My friend said true.

IAABO University said false.

I told him to contact the Dean Wormer for an explanation.

Ode to "The" IAABO U:

To the tables down at Mendy's
To the place where Carnesecca dwells
To the dear old Madison Garden bar we love so well
Sing the Whiffenpoofs assembled with their glasses raised on high
And the magic of their singing casts it's spell.

"The" IAABO U fight song:

On IAABO, On IAABO, plunge right through that line.
Run the ball clear down the field, a touchdown signal sure this time.
On IAABO, On IAABO, fight on for her fame.
Fight, fellows, fight, fight, fight, we'll officiate this game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just got a call from an old friend who is getting back into officiating after twenty year absence. Rather than take the local rules classes and exam in the fall, he’s taking his classes and test through IAABO University (it’s true, that’s what they call it).

He called me about this question.

Game clock shows two seconds left in the game. Official hands ball to inbounder A-1 for a throwin. A-1 releases the throwin pass. While the throwin pass is in the air, before being touched by anybody, the game horn erroneously sounds. Inbound passed ball continues, without touching a player, out of bounds. Official resets the game clock to two seconds and puts the ball at the disposal of Team A at the original throwin spot. Is the official correct?

My friend said that the official was correct. In a real heat of the game situation, using common sense, and figuring that the players were distracted by the erroneous horn, I probably would have done the same thing as the official in the question and I probably wouldn't have had to make a coach sit on the team bus in a cold parking lot, or in a smelly locker room.

But is that a "rulebook answer"?

IAABO University said that the official was incorrect, with no explanation.

So, here's my “rulebook” explanation. The game horn erroneously sounding did not cause the ball to become dead. So A-1 threw a “live” inbound pass, untouched by any player, out of bounds, a definite throwin violation. The official game knew that the clock should not have started and had definite knowledge to reset the clock back to two seconds. Due to A-1’s throwin violation, Team B gets the ball at its disposal at the spot of the original throwin.

Then get ready to send an irate coach to the cold bus, or to the smelly locker room.

What says the Forum?

Official should blow their whistle immediately and declare the play dead before the throw-in ends.

[JRutledge]

Why would there be a violation if you know the horn and clock started without the ball being legally touched. The minute I hear the horn, I am probably killing the play and there is no "violation."

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Official should blow their whistle immediately and declare the play dead before the throw-in ends.

Agree.

In this case, that would be before the throwin team commits a throw-in violation.

Could be be a matter of split seconds for an official to decide that this play is going sideways.

"Horn? Ball on way out of bounds untouched? Stop!"

Sometimes the horn sounds erroneously and I will wait to see if the players can play through it. Sometimes they can. The throwin pass going, untouched, out of bounds complicates this situation.

Even if the throwin had ended with the violation, with no previous whistle by me, I'm pretty sure that I could persuade the coaches that the thing to do would be to give the ball back to Team A for a throwin at the original spot with two seconds put back on the clock, even if not 100% rulebook "kosher", not that I would tell a coach that. I'm pretty sure that my assigner would back me up, not so sure that my interpreter would do the same.

In a tied game (I added that part), with two seconds left, this is a delicate, complex situation that must be handled by the crew with confidence. Any hesitation will be blood in the water for one of the coaches.

Make a confident decision, one way (Team A), or the other (Team B), and own the blow-back.

By rule, I believe that Team B should get the ball. Not sure that I would rule that way in a real game. Get together with my partner, "read the room", and come up with a confident, fair decision.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Official should blow their whistle immediately and declare the play dead before the throw-in ends.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The minute I hear the horn, I am probably killing the play and there is no "violation."

Agree.

I'm just not sure that my reaction time would allow for that. Best I could do would be to tell the coaches that I "killed" the play with the horn, but couldn't sound my whistle until the ball went out of bounds. Ball back to Team A, clock back to two seconds.

Of course, it all depends on how far the inbounds pass traveled until it went out of bounds. The longer the distance, the more likely I'm to "kill" the play with a whistle before the (OOB) throwin violation occurs.

Short inbound pass from the endline to the same side corner sideline, I'm probably not getting my "kill" whistle sounded before the violation, but the "kill" doesn't always require a whistle, it can also come with my decision to "kill".

Also, with two seconds left in tied game (or at the end of any period), I'm probably not waiting to see if the players can play through an erroneous horn. I'm "killing" it as soon as I can after the erroneous horn.

"Yeah coach. My whistle was late, but I had already deemed that the ball was dead".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

I'm just not sure that my reaction time would allow for that. Best I could do would be to tell the coaches that I "killed" the play with the horn, but couldn't sound my whistle until the ball went out of bounds. Ball back to Team A, clock back to two seconds.

Of course, it all depends on how far the inbounds pass traveled until it went out of bounds. The longer the distance, the more likely I'm to "kill" the play with a whistle before the (OOB) violation occurs.

If the horn goes off in the middle of the play, the play is already dead. Your whistle timing is to me irrelevant. You clearly have an inadvertent horn which you can deem affected the play. So your reaction time might matter to some, but it would not if I was on the game. I would likely recognize the play was going on and not just allow this to be a discussion about a violation verse a stoppage of play. Why is this such an issue?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the horn goes off in the middle of the play, the play is already dead.

Not always. Horn erroneously sounds for a substitute during a clock-running live ball in the first period. I'm waiting to see if the players can play through it. Sometimes they can. Sometime they can't.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You clearly have an inadvertent horn which you can deem affected the play.

Great point. Yes, I can deem the erroneous horn to have affected the play. Did it affect the play? That's the rub. Not sure here. Did the horn disrupt the play, or was it just a bad pass having nothing to do with the horn?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... with two seconds left in tied game (or at the end of any period), I'm probably not waiting to see if the players can play through an erroneous horn. I'm "killing" it as soon as I can after the erroneous horn ...

In this important situation, whether the players are affected by the erroneous horn, or not, I'm "killing" the play, even if my whistle is late.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Your whistle timing is to me irrelevant.

Agree.

Basketball Rules Fundamental #16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not always. Horn erroneously sounds for a substitute during a clock-running live ball in the first period. I'm waiting to see if the players can play through it. Sometimes they can. Sometime they can't.

If the horn goes off and there is no time on the clock (and the clock should have started), what are they playing through?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great point. Yes, I can deem the erroneous horn to have affected the play. Did it affect the play? That's the rub. Not sure here. Did the horn disrupt the play, or was it just a bad pass having nothing to do with the horn?

You don't have time on the clock. Where is the rub? What you going to wait until the play is over and then say the game is over?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In this important situation, whether the players are affected by the erroneous horn, or not, I'm "killing" the play, even if my whistle is late.

Again, if they get the ball, the play is over. So not sure why this is so hard to figure out?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the horn goes off and there is no time on the clock (and the clock should have started), what are they playing through?

Though not specifically mentioned, the implication was that the clock improperly started. At least that's how my friend and I read the question.

Theoretically, me mentally counting down the last two seconds, something I have always done at the end of every period for the past forty-plus years.

"Theoretically" because I'm "killing" this specific play and having a do-over.

My high school coaches always taught me to, "Play the whistle, not the horn".

And that was decades before high schools started to consider shot clocks.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Though not specifically mentioned, the implication was that the clock improperly started. At least that's how my friend and I read the question...

I read the play as simply the horn sounded since there was no mention of the clock starting.

If the clock started erroneously and went to 0:00, then I'm starting the throw-in over with time reset, regardless of what the ball did.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

IAABO University may need to get re-accredited.

After a successful field goal, before the ball is at the disposal of the non-scoring team, the ball is dead.

My friend said true.

IAABO University said false.

I told him to contact the Dean Wormer for an explanation.

Ode to "The" IAABO U:

To the tables down at Mendy's
To the place where Carnesecca dwells
To the dear old Madison Garden bar we love so well
Sing the Whiffenpoofs assembled with their glasses raised on high
And the magic of their singing casts it's spell.

"The" IAABO U fight song:

On IAABO, On IAABO, plunge right through that line.
Run the ball clear down the field, a touchdown signal sure this time.
On IAABO, On IAABO, fight on for her fame.
Fight, fellows, fight, fight, fight, we'll officiate this game.

And you remember what Dean Vernon Wormer told Kent "Flounder" Dorfman: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

Billy, I am composing a response for this thread as I am typing here.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the clock started erroneously and went to 0:00, then I'm starting the throw-in over with time reset, regardless of what the ball did.

Agree. I know that there are generally no "do-overs" in high school basketball, but sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do, which is why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I read the play as simply the horn sounded since there was no mention of the clock starting.

Though probably not word for word as written by IAABO University, this (paraphrased below, I didn't record the phone call), is what my friend told me the over the phone, and why we believed that the clock had has erroneously started.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Official resets the game clock to two seconds ...

Remember the game of "Telephone" that we played back in elementary school? By the time the message goes through all the students, it almost always changes.

I don't believe that that happened here. He read me the question word for word over the phone and there definitely was a resetting the clock back to two seconds involved, leading me to believe that the clock erroneously started causing the horn to erroneously sound.