Incorrectly charged technical foul

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This would probably be a good question to send to Indianapolis, because confusion over whether the player is charged with a T for a pre-game dunk is not all that uncommon. There’s also often confusion over whether or not it’s indirect to the HC.

You’d get the core question answered, and perhaps inspire a helpful case play or interp along the way.


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No need. There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book.

• All team members are bench personnel in pregame.
• Deadball dunk = T to the offender
• T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No need. There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book.

• All team members are bench personnel in pregame.
• Deadball dunk = T to the offender
• T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t stop serial rule kickers from kicking rules.

But sigh, you’re probably right: what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year?

I had two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience try to convince me a few days ago that if I called a contact foul during a throw-in, it had to be technical. Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

I even asked them: “So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?” They said “yes.” I was beside myself in disbelief. Frustrating.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

“So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?”

Had something similar a few years ago, but the hold (an arm grab) was before I had handed the ball to the inbounder to start a period. Surprised me and I sounded my whistle. Ended up calling it a dead ball intentional technical foul. Not my finest hour. Should have just gone inadvertent whistle, told the player to, "Knock it off", and moved on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... serial rule kickers ... what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year ... two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience ...

Two very good, experienced, junior varsity officials (both working some varsity games) before my varsity game a few years ago. Game was running very late so we watched from the locker room door. Shooting foul with all zeros on the clock and a buzzer to end the game. Twenty point game. Officials put free throw shooter on line with rebounders. I can understand one official not knowing the rule, but both? My partner and I were going to discuss it with them at halftime of our game, but they hightailed it out the door, without showering, or changing, before we tossed to start our varsity game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t stop serial rule kickers from kicking rules.

But sigh, you’re probably right: what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year?

I had two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience try to convince me a few days ago that if I called a contact foul during a throw-in, it had to be technical. Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

I even asked them: “So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?” They said “yes.” I was beside myself in disbelief. Frustrating.


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What bothers me is if/when people who do not study the rules dispense rules knowledge to newer officials.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

Originally Posted by Raymond

What bothers me is if people who do not study the rules dispense rules knowledge to newer officials.

Forty years ago, when I started officiating, a premium was put on "play calling" and "game management", even at the expense of rules knowledge, mechanics, and signals. They got assigned the best games, and the tournament games, even if they occasionally, or often, kicked an "odd" situation rule (correctable error, false double foul, etc.).

We learned a lot from them about "play calling" and "game management", and I thank them for that, but most of us knew, in the back of our minds, that these guys (and they were all guys back then) had limitations and were about to become relics of past, and that we needed to learn "more" to progress in the modern game.

As time passed, the best games, and the tournament games, seemed to be more assigned to officials with the "whole package", or close to it. "Play calling" and "game management" are still very important, but now other things, like rules knowledge, are also valued.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book. All team members are bench personnel in pregame. Dead ball dunk = T to the offender. T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

So you would make the change?

Nitpicking: Dead ball dunk is a separate rule than a pregame dunk. Dead ball dunk is a player technical foul (no indirect to head coach). Pregame (dead ball) dunk (no players yet) is a bench technical foul (indirect to head coach).

[Raymond]

Make the change.

This way it is now incumbent on the offending coach to make sure the technical foul was correctly assessed to his player.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Looking for some feedback on a messed up situation. What should they do?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... serious input from the Forum on a situation for a friend ...

Nevadaref: We've all had three days to ponder this.

What say you?

What would you advise your friend?

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Looking for some feedback on a messed up situation.

What should they do?
DQ A4 prior to the start of the third quarter or deem the wrongly charged T something which cannot be changed at this point?

I don't believe the question in the OP has been addressed satisfactorily, rather a different question later on was.

Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4, even after a confirmed misapplication of a rule, or does the the crew
have to "embrace the suck" and allow A4 to continue to participate?

Known-rules experts on this forum have, inexplicably, not yet weighed in.

[bob jenkins]

I don't think it's covered, but I'd charge A4 with the T and DQ him.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't think it's covered, but I'd charge A4 with the T and DQ him.

I would too.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I don't believe the question in the OP has been addressed satisfactorily, rather a different question later on was.



Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4, even after a confirmed misapplication of a rule, or does the the crew

have to "embrace the suck" and allow A4 to continue to participate?



Known-rules experts on this forum have, inexplicably, not yet weighed in.

Because it's not covered in the rule and case books or published interpretations.

Any rulings giving by individuals are just their opinions on how they would handle it.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4 ...

The phrase retroactive disqualification seems so severe and harsh (though factually true).

Let's calm down the emotions by changing the original situation.

Let's say that the question of the mistaken rule, or misapplication of the rule, comes to the attention (because at least one of them thought "Hmmm") of the officials as they are reporting the unsporting technical foul.

Still too late to change the team technical foul to a bench (and offender) technical foul?

Even less emotion (below), no disqualification.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A4 dunks during the pregame. The officials observe this and assess a team technical foul along with an indirect to the HC. For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls. At halftime the crew looks in the rulebook and sees that the technical for the pregame dunk should have been charged to A4 as a bench technical foul. What does the referee do coming out after halftime in this "low emotion, low impact" situation?

Also, we do have a retroactive disqualifications when the scorekeeper fails to inform the officials of a fifth team member foul, and later communicates such to the officials.