Incorrectly charged technical foul

[BillyMac]

Let's put it this way to lessen the impact aspect.

A4 dunks during the pregame. The officials observe this and assess a team technical foul along with an indirect to the HC. For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls. At halftime the crew looks in the rulebook and sees that the technical for the pregame dunk should have been charged to A4 as a bench technical foul.

What does the referee do coming out after halftime in this "low emotion, low impact" situation?

Remain silent? Mention the mistake to the coaches and rule that nothing can be done about it? Mention the mistake to the coaches and make the change (correct the mistake)?

Should the referee do the same thing here (no immediate disqualification) as in Nevadaref's original post (possible immediate disqualification)?

What if this was "discovered" two minutes into the first period? Too late?

What would James Naismith do?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Billy, I sought serious input from the forum on a situation ...

Nevadaref: How did I do? Better? We good?

More questions than answers, but I tried, gave it my best shot.

Still believe that an impacted angry coach (he may have good reason to be angry) is part of the equation, but should such possible repercussions affect the "right" decision, whatever it may be?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This would probably be a good question to send to Indianapolis, because confusion over whether the player is charged with a T for a pre-game dunk is not all that uncommon. There’s also often confusion over whether or not it’s indirect to the HC.

You’d get the core question answered, and perhaps inspire a helpful case play or interp along the way.


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No need. There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book.

• All team members are bench personnel in pregame.
• Deadball dunk = T to the offender
• T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No need. There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book.

• All team members are bench personnel in pregame.
• Deadball dunk = T to the offender
• T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t stop serial rule kickers from kicking rules.

But sigh, you’re probably right: what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year?

I had two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience try to convince me a few days ago that if I called a contact foul during a throw-in, it had to be technical. Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

I even asked them: “So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?” They said “yes.” I was beside myself in disbelief. Frustrating.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book. All team members are bench personnel in pregame. Dead ball dunk = T to the offender. T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

So you would make the change?

Nitpicking: Dead ball dunk is a separate rule than a pregame dunk. Dead ball dunk is a player technical foul (no indirect to head coach). Pregame (dead ball) dunk (no players yet) is a bench technical foul (indirect to head coach).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

“So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?”

Had something similar a few years ago, but the hold (an arm grab) was before I had handed the ball to the inbounder to start a period. Surprised me and I sounded my whistle. Ended up calling it a dead ball intentional technical foul. Not my finest hour. Should have just gone inadvertent whistle, told the player to, "Knock it off", and moved on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... serial rule kickers ... what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year ... two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience ...

Two very good, experienced, junior varsity officials (both working some varsity games) before my varsity game a few years ago. Game was running very late so we watched from the locker room door. Shooting foul with all zeros on the clock and a buzzer to end the game. Twenty point game. Officials put free throw shooter on line with rebounders. I can understand one official not knowing the rule, but both? My partner and I were going to discuss it with them at halftime of our game, but they hightailed it out the door, without showering, or changing, before we tossed to start our varsity game.

[Raymond]

Make the change.

This way it is now incumbent on the offending coach to make sure the technical foul was correctly assessed to his player.



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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t stop serial rule kickers from kicking rules.

But sigh, you’re probably right: what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year?

I had two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience try to convince me a few days ago that if I called a contact foul during a throw-in, it had to be technical. Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

I even asked them: “So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?” They said “yes.” I was beside myself in disbelief. Frustrating.


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What bothers me is if/when people who do not study the rules dispense rules knowledge to newer officials.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

Originally Posted by Raymond

What bothers me is if people who do not study the rules dispense rules knowledge to newer officials.

Forty years ago, when I started officiating, a premium was put on "play calling" and "game management", even at the expense of rules knowledge, mechanics, and signals. They got assigned the best games, and the tournament games, even if they occasionally, or often, kicked an "odd" situation rule (correctable error, false double foul, etc.).

We learned a lot from them about "play calling" and "game management", and I thank them for that, but most of us knew, in the back of our minds, that these guys (and they were all guys back then) had limitations and were about to become relics of past, and that we needed to learn "more" to progress in the modern game.

As time passed, the best games, and the tournament games, seemed to be more assigned to officials with the "whole package", or close to it. "Play calling" and "game management" are still very important, but now other things, like rules knowledge, are also valued.

[FlasherZ]

To me, the rules are clear, and it feels more like a clerical error than anything else. Coach should have known that the pre-game dunk affects his player. So, advise the coach his player is done for the day and move on.

A few weeks ago for me: different situation, but same type of concern with a pissed-off coach. I was working table of my son's junior high game as official scorer, and I had a student next to me running the scoreboard. During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach of the visitors for constantly running his mouth. I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification.

A minute or so later, down to a minute to go and visitors are down by 3. During dead ball period, coach calls timeout to strategize with the team. Scoreboard shows 5 fouls for his team, so he thinks he has a foul to use without free throws. During the timeout, I compare book to board and tell the student to add a team foul because we're at 6 for them. Ball is put at disposal of home team, who inbounds, and immediate visitor foul. I signal 1-and-1 to the reporting official who looks bewildered, looks up at the scoreboard, and comes over to discuss (because he also thought we were at 5), where I explain that the TF hadn't been recorded on the board as a team foul. He nodded in understanding, signaled the bonus to his partner, and they set up for the FT. Meanwhile, visitor head coach is apoplectic, saying that he thought he had the foul to give and "would have never told [his player] to foul on the inbound had it been reflected correctly" (which we all know is a complete lie, but hey, no harm in trying). He then made some snide comments about table causing him to lose the game. Coach's fault he didn't talk to his own scorekeeper, sitting next to him.

Turns out they lost by 1... because the home team made both TF FT's.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach ... I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification ...

Nice post FlasherZ. Welcome to the Forum.

Failing to add technical fouls to the team total, either in the scorebook and/or on the scoreboard, is a very common occurrence in subvarsity games, especially middle school games (and occasionally varsity games). And when notified, officials don't ignore the mistake, we fix it, and shoot free throws.

One and one, or no one and one, is impactful, but not quite as impactful as losing a player (who can dunk) for a half, but there are still similarities in these two situations. Not a correctable error, no statute of limitations, so we can fix it (seemingly contrary to it not being a correctable error), even if we have to deal with slings and arrows (and profane language) from a coach.

Take it out of context. A4 is penalized for a pregame dunk. Later A4 charged with a technical foul for an unsporting verbal confrontation with an opponent. By rule, where does A4 belong? Answer: A4 belongs (disqualified) on the bench.

Yes, there are complicating factors, but the bottom line is that A4, by rule, belongs (disqualified) on the bench.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

To me, the rules are clear, and it feels more like a clerical error than anything else. Coach should have known that the pre-game dunk affects his player. So, advise the coach his player is done for the day and move on.

A few weeks ago for me: different situation, but same type of concern with a pissed-off coach. I was working table of my son's junior high game as official scorer, and I had a student next to me running the scoreboard. During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach of the visitors for constantly running his mouth. I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification.

A minute or so later, down to a minute to go and visitors are down by 3. During dead ball period, coach calls timeout to strategize with the team. Scoreboard shows 5 fouls for his team, so he thinks he has a foul to use without free throws. During the timeout, I compare book to board and tell the student to add a team foul because we're at 6 for them. Ball is put at disposal of home team, who inbounds, and immediate visitor foul. I signal 1-and-1 to the reporting official who looks bewildered, looks up at the scoreboard, and comes over to discuss (because he also thought we were at 5), where I explain that the TF hadn't been recorded on the board as a team foul. He nodded in understanding, signaled the bonus to his partner, and they set up for the FT. Meanwhile, visitor head coach is apoplectic, saying that he thought he had the foul to give and "would have never told [his player] to foul on the inbound had it been reflected correctly" (which we all know is a complete lie, but hey, no harm in trying). He then made some snide comments about table causing him to lose the game. Coach's fault he didn't talk to his own scorekeeper, sitting next to him.

Turns out they lost by 1... because the home team made both TF FT's.

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

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[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

Are we doing the same in this scenario?

First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.

Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.

One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.

= = =

If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Are we doing the same in this scenario?



First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.



Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.



One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.



= = =



If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.



I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

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