End of quarter - "All related activity"

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

It’s funny to me, if this foul/expiration of time scenario involved a shooting foul, we’d already be 30 posts deep into our debate about whether 0.3 seconds should be added to the clock so we can put players on the lane.

And yet in this PCF scenario, everyone here seems content to agree that since the timer isn’t a robot and couldn’t stop the clock in time, we allow time to remain expired.

What’s the difference?


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My mentee had an interesting play in a D3 game last week.

H-73 V-71 w/0:06 left in game. V1 ends up driving to the basket from slot side. H2 slides over near RA to draw a charge. V1 elevates and releases shot barely prior to LED/horn. After releasing shot and after LED/horn, H1 crashes into V2. V2 was both in the RA and did not have an LGP, so no question as to it being a block. My mentee puts his fist up but never blows his whistle.

It was a rare situation where even if they had a monitor, it would have been free throws w/the lane cleared and 0:00 on the clock because we had an airborne shooter who had released the try before, but was fouled after, the expiration of time.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My mentee had an interesting play in a D3 game last week.

H-73 V-71 w/0:06 left in game. V1 ends up driving to the basket from slot side. H2 slides over near RA to draw a charge. V1 elevates and releases shot barely prior to LED/horn. After releasing shot and after LED/horn, H1 crashes into V2. V2 was both in the RA and did not have an LGP, so no question as to it being a block. My mentee puts his fist up but never blows his whistle.

It was a rare situation where even if they had a monitor, it would have been free throws w/the lane cleared and 0:00 on the clock because we had an airborne shooter who had released the try before, but was fouled after, the expiration of time.

Good example. That is the rare situation where that would happen at levels above NFHS. I think it even happened in an NBA playoff game last spring (though in this case on a jump shot from the corner).

That situation notwithstanding, the percolation of the “gotta put some time back on” philosophy to the NFHS game—even without definite information—is something that annoys me. I agree with BM on this one. There’s no NFHS rules support for this, but even my own rules interpreter insists that there is.


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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My mentee had an interesting play in a D3 game last week.

H-73 V-71 w/0:06 left in game. V1 ends up driving to the basket from slot side. H2 slides over near RA to draw a charge. V1 elevates and releases shot barely prior to LED/horn. After releasing shot and after LED/horn, H1 crashes into V2. V2 was both in the RA and did not have an LGP, so no question as to it being a block. My mentee puts his fist up but never blows his whistle.

It was a rare situation where even if they had a monitor, it would have been free throws w/the lane cleared and 0:00 on the clock because we had an airborne shooter who had released the try before, but was fouled after, the expiration of time.

And a perfect example showing that the idea that you must have time on the clock if you have foul with FTs is just not true.

[ilyazhito]

The related activity is reporting the foul. Since related activity for period 2 had not yet ended, intermission had not started, and the player who mouthed off is still a player. The technical foul and free throws are shot as part of the 3rd period, and Team B gets possession regardless of the arrow. The arrow is used for the next AP throw-in.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The related activity is reporting the foul. Since related activity for period 2 had not yet ended, intermission had not started, and the player who mouthed off is still a player. The technical foul and free throws are shot as part of the 3rd period, and Team B gets possession regardless of the arrow. The arrow is used for the next AP throw-in.

Reference?

Either way, the rest of your statement is again incorrect.

If period 2 has not ended, then the FTs are shot as part of period 2, there is no throw-in for the T and period 3 starts with the "normal" AP throw-in.

Or, period 2 has ended and period 3 starts with the FTs for the T and the throw-in for the T.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The related activity is reporting the foul.

No, it isn't. Reporting is a scorekeeping task, not a related activity. Related activities are things that occur in the game itself, not what the officials do. Related activity is anything that happens with the FTs, like a FT violation, or a timeout taken before the FTs are completed.


The moment the ball becomes dead and there are no FTs pending, the quarter is over and anything that happens is now part of the next quarter.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The related activity is reporting the foul. Since related activity for period 2 had not yet ended, intermission had not started, and the player who mouthed off is still a player. The technical foul and free throws are shot as part of the 3rd period, and Team B gets possession regardless of the arrow. The arrow is used for the next AP throw-in.

First, you have mixed your decision and its consequences. If you consider period 2 to not yet have ended, then the technical foul is part of that period and the penalty is administered during that quarter, not the next one, which would start normally with the AP arrow.

Secondly, I believe that the phrase “all related activity” applies to game action of the players, not anything that the officials or scorer/timer must do.

Consider a try released near the period sounding horn which enters the basket after the horn sounds. Is the official’s decision to count the goal part of that quarter? Perhaps this takes a moment or some discussion. What about the scorer needing to then record the points in the book? Or the clock/scoreboard operator putting the points on the board?

How would you handle an unsporting comment made by a team member or coach while the officials are discussing the try or the table crew has yet to record the result of it?

[Raymond]

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

If there is a technical foul prior, is the whole notification and substitution process ignored if it is the end of a quarter?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

Yes there is because said player needs their identity changed from a player to bench personnel as soon as possible (for indirect technical foul purposes), and this is an important "activity".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes there is because said player needs their identity changed from a player to bench personnel as soon as possible (for indirect technical foul purposes), and this important "activity" can take up to fifteen seconds.

I believe that you are confusing the replacement interval with the notification process. The player immediately becomes bench personnel upon the notification of the coach that the individual has committed a disqualifying foul (fifth total, two technical, or one flagrant). Now it may take up to fifteen seconds for a new player to report and enter the contest, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the status of the disqualified individual.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that you are confusing the replacement interval with the notification process. The player immediately becomes bench personnel upon the notification of the coach that the individual has committed a disqualifying foul (fifth total, two technical, or one flagrant).

Agree (changed it).

Did it to point out the official may be standing there for up to fifteen seconds taking the slings and arrows of unsporting conduct.

Can we wait until after the intermission to beckon the substitute? If one believes we can't, has the period really ended before the substitute is beckoned?

I know that we can't grant a timeout request until the substitute is beckoned.

5.8.3 SITUATION C: A1 fouls B2. The scorer notifies the nearest official that this is A1’s fifth foul. The official notifies the coach of Team A of the disqualification. The official then instructs the timer to begin the 15-second replacement period. The official then notifies A1. After 10 seconds have elapsed: (a) the captain of Team A; or (b) the captain of Team B requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the time-out request is denied as disqualified A1 must be replaced prior to any time-out being granted to either team. (2-8-4; 10-5-2)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why not edit the rulebook to reflect that? "The period does not end until all activity related to the foul has ended. This includes reporting the foul and administering the subsequent free throws. If no free throws are appointed, the period is immediately ended, and the intermission begins after the foul is reported to the official scorer." This would clear up some of the confusion in this thread for future games.

The NFHS certainly could have written the rule the way that you describe or could make a change to have it become that. However, that is not the case now, and therefore, the period ends prior to the reporting of any foul for which there will not be any free throws.
There is even a case play in which free throws would be awarded for a foul during a try after the horn, but the team is down by too many points for the free throws to impact the outcome and the ruling is that the quarter is over, yet as the officials are leaving the court the coach of the winning team commits an unsporting technical foul. Now the total number of free throws could make a difference in the winner and the officials must stay and administer until a winner is determined or OT is warranted. So we do have a bizarre case ruling in which a quarter has ended, but then that is reversed due to the game having not yet ended and something else happening.

Originally Posted by Raymond

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

If there is a technical foul prior, is the whole notification and substitution process ignored if it is the end of a quarter?

Yes, but the quarter is still over before the player is officially disqualified. You are correct that a time-out cannot be granted until a DQ’d player is replaced, but a period can certainly end prior to that. In fact, there is no need to replace the player if the game is ending.

For such occurring at the horn of quarters 1, 2, or 3, or with a tied score in the 4th or extra period, the notification and substitution process wouldn’t be ignored, it would simply take place after the official end of the period.

[Raymond]

Final regular season high school game of my career, 19th season doing high school.

First time I've ever called a technical foul going into halftime (assistant coach mouthing off and cursing as I was going to the table)

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Final regular season high school game of my career, 19th season doing high school.

First time I've ever called a technical foul going into halftime (assistant coach mouthing off and cursing as I was going to the table)

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Sorry to hear. HS officiating will be losing a quality ref.
I hope that you will continue to participate on the forum. I’ve always respected your views and opinions, even when you went by BNR.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry to hear. HS officiating will be losing a quality ref.
I hope that you will continue to participate on the forum. I’ve always respected your views and opinions, even when you went by BNR.

Thanks for the kind words. Participating in this forum, and a few of you in particular, are a major reason I have a reputation as a rules guru in my association. There are many times my rules research begins with something posted here.

I plan on staying connected with my association as a camp clinician and in-season observer.

I am also currently mentoring 4 officials:

- one young man who came to us straight out of HS and is now a D1/D3 official and works his HS ball in the Catholic League up in DC. If he sticks with it (he has a great 9-to-5 job that he definitely prioritizes), he'll be in the ACC one day.

- a young lady who just started this past year and wants to be a D1 Men's official. She was one of the all-time leading scorers in D3 history and has been playing overseas professionally for the past decade. She has a great foundation and the right temperament to be successful

- 2 buddies of mine who just finished working their first seasons on the NCAA-Women's side

I'll also continue to post NCAA videos on our association's FB page. Most of what is in those videos applies to HS just as much as it does to college.

(BTW, on my penultimate evening the day before, in my last ever DH, the JV game went quadruple OT, another first for me. My zipper then promptly broke and I had to ref the Varsity game with safety pins holding my fly closed)