Time Out

[rbruno]

Had this last night. NFHS rules. 8 sec left in a tie game. White has the ball under Red's basket. Pass in is tipped and stolen by Red, then White, then Red again.... White coach tries to call time out just as his team got the ball on their steal. Before I can acknowledge the time out Red steals for the second time. I blow the whistle but Red has possession. I ruled an inadvertant whistle, granted White's time out and gave the ball to Red for a sideline throw in.
Did I adjudicate this correctly?

[Raymond]

Yes, that is proper.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rbruno

8 sec left in a tie game. White has the ball under Red's basket. Pass in is tipped and stolen by Red, then White, then Red again.... White coach tries to call time out just as his team got the ball on their steal. Before I can acknowledge the time out Red steals for the second time. I blow the whistle but Red has possession.

I hate these situations. Could be avoided if the NFHS didn't allow head coaches to request timeouts during a clock running live ball.

Officials need to concentrate on the players in these situations, not on oral and/or visual timeout requests coming from "somebody" near the bench.

[BillyMac]

5-8-3-A: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

Granted when the ball is in control of player when the request is made, or granted when the ball is in control of player when granted?

Fuzzy rule language?

[Amesman]

If I'm reading and interpreting the OP correctly, why would you have to declare inadvertent whistle? Were you not (correctly) moving to signal a timeout that was appropriately requested by White when White had possession? If you were a little slow on the trigger, does that negate White's valid request?

Or did White not request the timeout until it had already lost the ball again?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Amesman

If I'm reading and interpreting the OP correctly, why would you have to declare inadvertent whistle? Were you not (correctly) moving to signal a timeout that was appropriately requested by White when White had possession? If you were a little slow on the trigger, does that negate White's valid request? Or did White not request the timeout until it had already lost the ball again?

Official: "Do you still want the timeout?"

Head coach: (Knowing that they won't end up with the ball) "Never mind."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-8-3-A: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

Granted when the ball is in control of player when the request is made, or granted when the ball is in control of player when granted?

Fuzzy rule language?

Didn't we just go through this? Why not just link to that thread. I'm nearly 100% certain that nothing is new since then.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Didn't we just go through this? Why not just link to that thread. I'm nearly 100% certain that nothing is new since then.

Wanted a fresh start and also wanted to keep it simple.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Amesman

If I'm reading and interpreting the OP correctly, why would you have to declare inadvertent whistle? Were you not (correctly) moving to signal a timeout that was appropriately requested by White when White had possession? If you were a little slow on the trigger, does that negate White's valid request?

Or did White not request the timeout until it had already lost the ball again?

This was my same thought/question.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Didn't we just go through this? Why not just link to that thread.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1046381

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rbruno

Had this last night. NFHS rules. 8 sec left in a tie game. White has the ball under Red's basket. Pass in is tipped and stolen by Red, then White, then Red again.... White coach tries to call time out just as his team got the ball on their steal. Before I can acknowledge the time out Red steals for the second time. I blow the whistle but Red has possession. I ruled an inadvertant whistle, granted White's time out and gave the ball to Red for a sideline throw in.
Did I adjudicate this correctly?

White requested the TO when white had the ball, you acknowledged it when white had the ball, you blew the whistle. A little bit slow on the whistle doesn't change the fact that you heard it and decided to grant it when white had the ball. White timeout, white ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While requested the TO when white had the ball, you acknowledged it when white had the ball, you blew the whistle. A little bit slow on the whistle doesn't change the fact that you heard it and decided to grant it when white had the ball. White timeout, white ball.

Knowing that the official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead), what if rbruno, for whatever reason (loud crowded gym, poor sightlines, etc.) needed split seconds to mentally (and possibly visually) evaluate the request (possibly turning his head away for a spit second), and then when finally satisfied the request was legal (appropriate head coach) and when he finally (possibly turning his attention back to the players) decided to grant (no whistle needed), white had lost possession of the ball in those split seconds? Or worse, the ball was on it's way out of bounds, or the ball was in midair as a try, or red had possession of the ball?

I won't go as far as to say that Camron Rust is wrong, but I still believe that the rule language is "fuzzy" at best.

5-8-3-A: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

[billyu2]

Seldom does not mean “always.” A request for a time out is not the same as a player with the ball stepping on a boundary, or a foul, or an errant pass landing out of bounds. A coach’s request when his player has control of the ball simply means it was a valid request. A prudent official will make sure there is still player control before granting the time out in my opinion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

A coach’s request when his player has control of the ball simply means it was a valid request. A prudent official will make sure there is still player control before granting the time out in my opinion.

Well stated, and I personally agree with you, but it's opinion based on "fuzzy" rule language.

I would not bet my house that our opinion is correct. Ten bucks, maybe, but not my house.

[billyu2]

Many times officials will rule in favor of the coach, saying the “request” was made when there was player control. Are we simply in too big of a hurry to oblige the coach his time out request? Why? If the coach doesn’t understand by rule we must first be certain of the status of the ball (PC) before granting his time out request, that is his problem not ours. Locate the ball. Then make your decision. PC, yes? Whistle, grant time out. No PC? No whistle. No time out. The principle here is not any different than ruling on the release of a last-second shot. Would any official whistle the ball dead without accurate knowledge of the location of the ball? Locate the ball. Ball touching hand? Whistle, no shot. Ball in flight? No whistle.