Free throw Situation

[BryanV21]

Throwing something on the court and cheerleaders coming onto the court are different things. Cheerleaders are allowed on the court during certain situations, as you pointed out... But throwing anything on the court is never allowed. So I don't agree that the two situations can be treated the same.

If you deem cheerleaders as bench personnel then I can support a technical foul, but the fact is this situation is different and falls on the officials to make a decision that needs to be addressed but is not made clear by the book.

I certainly believe things could have been handled differently, like taking care of the situation at the time it occurred, but I believe some game management was necessary as well.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In regard to the order of the free throws. Ruling, or not ruling, distraction is not a correctable error situation, but I believe that this situation would also fall under 2-3.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Another point to mention: once the second FT attempt occurs, it is too late to go back and penalize for something which happened during the first attempt. The game has moved on.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I certainly believe things could have been handled differently, like taking care of the situation at the time it occurred ...

This part of the situation could have been handled better. Why wasn't the first free throw (a miss) deemed distracted (hindered) under 2-3? It was only after the second free throw was made that the first free throw (the miss) was deemed distracted (hindered).

Can't figure out why the cheerleaders weren't sent back to their off court positions before the first free throw. Once that was not observed, or observed and ignored (allowed), this entire messy situation is best handled under 2-3.

Definitely not a correctable error situation. Definitely not a normal free throw distraction situation. Cheerleaders are definitely not team members for the purpose of opponents distracting, or for the purpose of a technical foul.

Situations like this are why Rule 2-3 was invented.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Cheerleaders and mascots ... are not permitted to be on the court (inbounds) other than during a full time-out or intermission ... they ran out onto the court after the player had the ball, hence there is there only one remedy—a technical foul.

Not sure a technical foul is appropriate. They just can't do it. Send them back off the court.

Same thing with band playing at times other than pregame, time-outs, intermission, and post-game. They just can't do it. Tell them to stop.

Except in very rare circumstances, let game management deal with fans of all types: students, parents, home, visitor, cheerleaders, mascots, band members, etc.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Except in very rare circumstances, let game management deal with fans of all types: students, parents, home, visitor, cheerleaders, mascots, band members, etc.

2.8.1 SITUATION: What guidelines should be exercised by the officials when spectators’ actions are such that they interfere with the administration of the game? RULING: The rules book states “the official may rule fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.” It is significant to note the word used is “may.” This gives permission, but does not in any way imply that officials must call technical fouls on team followers or supporters for unsporting acts. Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the unsporting act.

5.4.1 SITUATION B: The covering official rules a double foul on the post player and opponent after both push and shove each other. It is the fifth foul on each player. Some spectators in the crowd react vocally in a negative manner while others throw paper cups, etc., on the floor. The entire crowd seems to be in a hostile mood. What should the officials do? RULING: The officials must ask game -management or home management to control the spectators. The officials have authority to charge a technical foul(s) if it can be determined which team’s spectators are involved. However, much discretion is necessary in this case and the officials must be aware that a technical foul(s) on spectators usually leads to even more problems. COMMENT: The game should not be forfeited to either team because of the action of spectators. If game or home management cannot restore order by removal or other means, the officials are authorized to suspend play. The game would then be continued from the point of interruption, unless the teams agree to terminate the game with the existing score, or there are conference, league or state association rules which apply.

1.18 SITUATION: In (a), the band from the home team is playing during a live ball; (b) the electronic scoreboard is playing broken-glass sound effects just after an opponent's missed field-goal attempt; or (c) fans from the visiting team are using artificial noisemakers during an opponent's attempted free throw. RULING: All situations are prohibited by rule. The officials should notify game management in (a) to instruct the band to only play during the permitted times; in (b) to instruct the scoreboard operator to cease the prohibited acts; and in (c) to have a public-address announcement made stating that the use of any artificial noisemakers is prohibited at all times. In all situations, if the problem continues it may result in a technical foul being assessed to the team supporter(s).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Throwing something on the court and cheerleaders coming onto the court are different things. Cheerleaders are allowed on the court during certain situations, as you pointed out... But throwing anything on the court is never allowed. So I don't agree that the two situations can be treated the same.

If you deem cheerleaders as bench personnel then I can support a technical foul, but the fact is this situation is different and falls on the officials to make a decision that needs to be addressed but is not made clear by the book.

I certainly believe things could have been handled differently, like taking care of the situation at the time it occurred, but I believe some game management was necessary as well.

Sigh, one cannot “manage” a situation which has unfairly impacted one team nor can one make up a way of addressing it when a remedy is clearly provided for in the rules. (Note to BillyMac: this is why 2-3 is not applicable here.)

Cheerleaders are not bench personnel. They are team supporters and it is crystal clear which team they represent. They are spectators with the special privilege of entering the court at specified times. If the do something which unfairly impacts the game, then the NFHS rules provide a remedy. As I’ve already stated the proper remedy is a technical foul and BillyMac has now posted two play rulings supporting that. You will find nothing stating to issue a replacement FT. Why? Because that’s not how the rules deal with misbehaving spectators.

One of the casebook rulings demonstrates that game management can be informed to put a stop to the improper behavior, and that can be done without the penalty of a technical foul, if no negative impact to the game has occurred. However, if fairness has been infringed, then the only way to restore that balance is to charge the technical foul.

So if the band is playing while the opposing team has the ball, play can be halted and the illegal behavior can be stopped without any serious injustice having been suffered, but if a team loses a FT opportunity or a wide-open layup near the end of a quarter because cheerleaders run out onto the floor, you need to ask yourself would it be fair to just have game administration tell them to not do that again? When an opportunity has unfairly been lost, the technical foul is the proper manner to restore the balance.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Cheerleaders are not bench personnel. They are team supporters and it is crystal clear which team they represent. They are spectators with the special privilege of entering the court at specified times. If the do something which unfairly impacts the game, then the NFHS rules provide a remedy. As I’ve already stated the proper remedy is a technical foul ... You will find nothing stating to issue a replacement FT. Why? Because that’s not how the rules deal with misbehaving spectators.

Nevadaref, as usual, makes a sound argument.

One fly in the ointment, what if it was a visitor player shooting the free throws and it was the visitor cheerleaders on the court distracting the visitor player? So he doesn't get a replacement free throw and the home team gets two free throws? That certainly doesn't seem fair.

With all due respect, I like my remedy a little better.

[Nevadaref]

Billy,
Let me ask you this?
During a normal FT attempt, A1 is preparing to shoot, while his teammate A2 in a marked lane space is clapping his hands. A1 attempts the FT and misses. Do you have a distraction call?
Answer: Of course not. Distraction must be by an opponent. Why? Because the NFHS doesn’t want a team member to be unfairly distracted. If one of his own does something silly, then that is that team’s own issue.

Now let’s look what you just asked.
B1 is shooting the first FT of two when a cheerleader from Team B comes out onto the court and causes a distracting situation. Does B1 get a replacement FT? Of course not. Again this is not an opponent, so distraction is not a possible call.
Now should this be a technical foul? Did the action unfairly impact the game? While we could assess a technical foul and award Team A two FTs for the infringement of entering the court at an unpermitted time, that would be overly harsh because the team which would receive the benefit of the 2 FTs didn’t lose out on anything by the transgression. Therefore, it would be appropriate to have the cheerleader removed from the court and allow game administration to counsel her on when she is allowed to be out there and when not.
In short, if Team A wasn’t harmed in any way by the cheerleader’s transgression, then they have no real need for a remedy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

During a normal FT attempt, A1 is preparing to shoot, while his teammate A2 in a marked lane space is clapping his hands. A1 attempts the FT and misses. Do you have a distraction call?

No, because I consider A2 to be a teammate and not an opponent. I consider cheerleaders to be neither teammates nor are they opponents, they're fans (with rare exceptions), and this situation is not a "normal" distracted (hindered) free thrower situation "specifically covered in the rules".

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sigh, one cannot “manage” a situation which has unfairly impacted one team nor can one make up a way of addressing it when a remedy is clearly provided for in the rules. (Note to BillyMac: this is why 2-3 is not applicable here.)



Cheerleaders are not bench personnel. They are team supporters and it is crystal clear which team they represent. They are spectators with the special privilege of entering the court at specified times. If the do something which unfairly impacts the game, then the NFHS rules provide a remedy. As I’ve already stated the proper remedy is a technical foul and BillyMac has now posted two play rulings supporting that. You will find nothing stating to issue a replacement FT. Why? Because that’s not how the rules deal with misbehaving spectators.



One of the casebook rulings demonstrates that game management can be informed to put a stop to the improper behavior, and that can be done without the penalty of a technical foul, if no negative impact to the game has occurred. However, if fairness has been infringed, then the only way to restore that balance is to charge the technical foul.



So if the band is playing while the opposing team has the ball, play can be halted and the illegal behavior can be stopped without any serious injustice having been suffered, but if a team loses a FT opportunity or a wide-open layup near the end of a quarter because cheerleaders run out onto the floor, you need to ask yourself would it be fair to just have game administration tell them to not do that again? When an opportunity has unfairly been lost, the technical foul is the proper manner to restore the balance.

The term "bench personnel" could absolutely include cheerleaders (see the pic of the rulebook app below).

And I wasn't saying you were wrong, but for game management purposes (something that is emphasized plenty in those interpretations/cases) re-administering the free throw is a fine option. Maybe it's not crystal clear in the book, but support for that can certainly be found.

And how about we be a tad more respectful?

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The term "bench personnel" could absolutely include cheerleaders (see the pic of the rulebook app below).

And I wasn't saying you were wrong, but for game management purposes (something that is emphasized plenty in those interpretations/cases) re-administering the free throw is a fine option. Maybe it's not crystal clear in the book, but support for that can certainly be found.

And how about we be a tad more respectful?

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Wow! Sometimes what you post seems to come from a new official, but you have to have at least ten years of experience. Sometimes you fail to grasp the most basic elements of a situation.

So I’ll write this out for you clearly and as respectfully as possible.
1. Bench personnel are those who are permitted to be in the team bench area for the duration of the game. If the bench area doesn’t have enough space, then they will be located as close as possible to the team bench, such as in the first row of the stands.
2. While members of the school cheer squad and band are clearly affiliated with the school and team, they are not part of the team. Have you ever seen the cheerleaders or a trumpet player go into the team huddle during a time-out? Have you ever seen the cheer squad sit in the team bench area during the game? I haven’t. Let’s be realistic. It’s not going to happen.
3. You keep insisting that awarding a replacement FT is a fine option in this scenario. That is frustrating to me because it is completely wrong. Here’s why. As officials we have to administer the rules as written. What you are calling game management, I call making up your own ruling. The NFHS has admonished officials against personal interpretations on several occasions.
There are only two situations in which a replacement FT can be awarded: a) a player of the non-shooting team violates, b) a member of the opposing team commits distraction. I am quite firm in stating that a cheerleader running out onto the court fits neither of those cases. You seem to contend that the cheerleader is a member of the opposing team. I don’t believe that you will find much agreement with you on that. I’ll also point you to NFHS rule 1-20 in which spirit participants are classified as non-playing personnel and their location is clearly listed.

4. So how do we properly administer the rules for this situation? Is there something in the book or do we need to invoke the referee’s elastic clause (2-3)?
We can only invoke 2-3 when the rules do not cover a situation and we have NFHS rule 2-8-1 Note which contains “The officials may rule fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.” Obviously, such a foul would be a technical foul by definition because the offender is a non-player and only players may commit personal fouls. Do we have any other rule for penalizing spectators or people who aren’t part of either team? Can the officials call violations on them? Nope, I don’t find that anywhere. So we only have two choices: we can halt play and have game administration deal with the improper behavior or we can call a technical foul. We have to use our judgment as to when each is appropriate. What we cannot do is completely make up another remedy on our own and impose that, such as awarding a replacement FT.

Let me pose a scenario for you. Team B is trailing by one point with under five seconds remaining and has the ball in its backcourt. B3 beats his defender and receives a long pass so that he now has a clear path for an easy layup. Cheerleader A steps onto the court and kicks the ball away just as B3 was finishing his final dribble before attempting a try. There is two seconds remaining on the clock when the cheerleader contacts the ball.
If the covering official decides to award Team B two points for the easy basket which B3 was about to score, would you support that?
If the covering official charges a team technical foul after which Team B only makes one FT and then loses in OT, would you believe that a fair ruling was not made?