Starting A Dribble ...

[BillyMac]

This situation was discussed among a group of local experienced officials a few nights ago.

A1's pass is intercepted by B1. B1 then jumps in the air to pass the ball to a teammate and sees they are not open. B1 then, before landing, starts a dribble. The official calls a traveling violation. Is the official correct?

Some answered: As long as B1 releases the ball to hit the floor before they return to the floor, this is not a traveling violation.

I disagree.

4-44-3-C: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

4-44-4-B After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot: Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Would it be different if B1 was still airborne (while making the steal) and started the dribble while still airborne (having never established a pivot foot) before landing?

I believe that that would be legal.

Comments?

[Camron Rust]

Travel. Once a player jumps, having been in possession of the ball while on the floor, the pivot foot has been lifted and a dribble can no longer be started.

It is legal if a player catches the ball in the air and starts a dribble before landing. The pivot foot hasn't been lifted yet...they haven't even established one yet.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Travel. Once a player jumps, having been in possession of the ball while on the floor, the pivot foot has been lifted and a dribble can no longer be started. It is legal if a player catches the ball in the air and starts a dribble before landing. The pivot foot hasn't been lifted yet...they haven't even established one yet.

Thanks for the confirmation Camron Rust.

Can I assume that when a player, having been in possession of the ball while on the floor, jumps from the floor, with both feet airborne, said player can only legally do three things before landing: pass, shoot, or request a timeout? Anything else I'm missing?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for the confirmation Camron Rust.

Can I assume that when a player, having been in possession of the ball while on the floor, jumps from the floor, with both feet airborne, said player can only legally do three things before landing: pass, shoot, or request a timeout? Anything else I'm missing?

Stay there until time expires.

[Raymond]

What makes this different than any other conversation we've already had about players purposely dropping the ball after going airborne?

And what veteran official ever thought that you cannot start a dribble if airborne when gaining possession?

You needed confirmation Billy? You're being genuine?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You needed confirmation Billy?

The official who came up with this lame interpretation is a highly respected, highly ranked (state tournament finals) , very experienced official who had led our rules training committee for several years. I intend to challenge his interpretation, something that has seldom occurred during his tenure, and I wanted to be 100% certain before I did so, not wanting to appear foolish with my challenge.

Fools Rush In (proverb): Foolish people make decisions quickly, with little serious thought. A shortened version of the phrase "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."

[Raymond]

Billy you've already had this discussion a million times in this forum. How can you referee a game if you are always doubting basic rules knowledge?

Was there a rule book disrespected referee pulled out to show you he was right?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Was there a rule book disrespected referee pulled out to show you he was right?

Appeared in a seldom used local online forum sometime last week. I seldom check out this little used (underused in my opinion) forum, so I'm coming in with a late call.

“Never strike a king unless you are sure you shall kill him.” (Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1's pass is intercepted by B1. B1 then jumps in the air to pass the ball to a teammate and sees they are not open. B1 then, before landing, starts a dribble. The official calls a traveling violation. Is the official correct?

I see a loophole here. It's only a travel violation if A1 is the first to touch the ball after it bounces on the floor.

4.44.3 Situation A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. Ruling: In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Not the same as the interpretation (explanation) given, but a possible complicating factor.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Appeared in a seldom used local online forum sometime last week. I seldom check out this little used (underused) forum, so I'm coming in with a late call.



“Never strike a king unless you are sure you shall kill him.” (Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.)

Then you should look at the rule book too when jump into these discussions because you should be responding with a rules citation.

But again, if you're on the court how are you forgetting a basic rule such as this? You don't get to pause the game while you click on the internet for one of us to confirm a basic rule.

There are some rulings you, a 40-year veteran who is on this board discussing rules on a daily basis, should not be forgetting or getting wrong.




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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Then you should look at the rule book too when jump into these discussions because you should be responding with a rules citation.

The interpretation was wrong when I first read it. The interpretation was confirmed wrong when I looked it up in the rulebook.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I disagree. 4-44-3-C: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble. 4-44-4-B After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot: Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

I was going after the "king", so had to be 100% certain.

Turns out that while the interpretation (explanation) is poorly worded, there is some possibility that an automatic "call" of a travel may be (sometimes) incorrect because of the loophole.

I may just let sleeping dogs lie.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Stay there until time expires.

Hang time.

[Raymond]

"A1's pass is intercepted by B1. B1 then jumps in the air to pass the ball to a teammate and sees they are not open. B1 then, before landing, starts a dribble. The official calls a traveling violation. Is the official correct?

Some answered: As long as B1 releases the ball to hit the floor before they return to the floor, this is not a traveling violation."

If you are unsure about this answer being incorrect, you shouldn't be participating in rules discussions that could influence younger officials.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If you are unsure about this answer being incorrect ...

Oh I was sure. You can't possibly fathom the "all knowing" personalty of the official I was about to challenge. Even if proven wrong, he would have been highly offended to be questioned.

Also, turns out that this is not an "automatic" travel. There is not enough information in the question to make any type of "automatic" generic ruling.

Under certain circumstances "this is not a traveling violation" (ball bounces off the floor and touches another player).

The part about "as long as B1 releases the ball to hit the floor before they return to the floor" was dead wrong, something that I spotted right away.

Another example of poor wording. I'll take an oral conversation over the written word almost every time.

[Raymond]

He's not all knowing if he thinks you can start a dribble after jumping in the air.

You can throw all these other variables in if you want to, but the discussion was about starting a dribble after jumping in the air--not dropping the ball, not fumbling the ball, not directing the ball towards another teammate.

And the ruling for that is clear.



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