starting a dribble

[rsl]

A1 passes the ball to A2, and A2 knocks the ball to the floor and then catches the ball with both hands. Can A2 legally start a dribble?

Variants:
(1) A2 controls the ball with one hand and pushes it to the floor, then catches it with both hands.

(2) the pass is high, so A2 jumps and knocks the ball down and then recovers it with both hands.

This is just a silly question from a pickup game, but in a real game I would want to see real control while controlling the pass to call it a dribble. But, in the pickup game it looked more like (1) and A2 got an easy layup because his defender didn't think he could still dribble. This is probably HTBT, but what do you guys think?

4-15-1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

4-15-3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by rsl

A1 passes the ball to A2, and A2 knocks the ball to the floor and then catches the ball with both hands. Can A2 legally start a dribble?

Variants:
(1) A2 controls the ball with one hand and pushes it to the floor, then catches it with both hands.

(2) the pass is high, so A2 jumps and knocks the ball down and then recovers it with both hands.

Situation 1, I would consider this to be the dribble (assuming he pushed the ball to the floor intentionally.)

Variation 1, Player has dribbled.

Variation 2, player has not dribbled. He did not control the ball until he touched it with both hands.

[Pirate]

If the sitch is as you describe, I got a violation in 1 and a play on in 2. Just my .02

[Vinski]

Like you said, it’s a HTBT situation. However, the thing to remember is in order for a dribble to happen, the ball has to be controlled. In the original situation, you would pretty much have to judge if the knocking the ball to the floor was an attempt to gain control or if it was a purposeful bat/push to the floor. You see this sort of action a lot in lower level ball. If it was an attempt to gain control, then that wasn’t a dribble.

In variation 1 you said A2 controls the ball with one hand. That would be a dribble.

In variation 2 it is more than likely not yet a dribble.

[rsl]

So control is the key- that's what I thought.

Sounds like I gave the right answer. It sucks being the only official in my weekly pick-up game- they expect me to know everything

Thanks guys!

[bbcoach7]

I coach girls, and see the first example given rather often. Particularly JV or below, not as much with varsity. Instead of catching the ball, female players will frequently deflect a low (below the waist) pass straight down to the floor, then catch it off the bounce, and play as though they still have their dribble. I'd guess that I see this occur once or twice in the majority of youth league or JV games. I've always thought this looked like a double dribble, but I've never seen it called that way in a game.

I am always emphasizing both passing and catching with two hands. I think this may be why I rarely see my kids catch like this.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

So control is the key- that's what I thought.

Sounds like I gave the right answer. It sucks being the only official in my weekly pick-up game- they expect me to know everything

Thanks guys!

Correct. The dribble has to be done WHILE IN CONTROL. I would not consider either of your situations to be a violation. If you wouldn't grant a time-out to this team during the time that the player batted/pushed the ball to the floor, but prior to catching it, then you are not deeming the player to be in control, and thus should not call a violation.

[mbyron]

Remember: you can fumble-dribble-fumble... how does that go, BillyMac?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

How does that go, BillyMac?

As an oft-misunderstood basketball rule:

During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

As a short reminder:

Fumble, dribble, fumble. (legal)

[Johnny Ringo]

and a player who is dribbling has an Interrupted dribble and can continue to dribble, correct?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

and a player who is dribbling has an Interrupted dribble and can continue to dribble, correct?

Can continue to dribble, yes. But, the player cannot recover (grab, hold) the ball and then dribble.

[Back In The Saddle]

There's a bit of a circular definition involved with this.

NFHS 4-15-1 "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

NFHS 4-12-1 "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds."

He has to be "in control" of the ball to be considered dribbling, but dribbling is one way he can be in control of the ball.

For my money, until the player clearly demonstrates that he has the ball under control I am judging that he's trying to get it under control. A bat to the floor in this situation is, in my experience, part of the process of getting the ball under control. Especially if he bats it just once and then picks it up on the bounce.

If, however, he pushes it to the floor a second time, I'll turn that around and by default judge that he is now dribbling unless he clearly demonstrates that he does not have it under control.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

For my money, until the player clearly demonstrates that he has the ball under control I am judging that he's trying to get it under control.

For me, this judgment depends somewhat on level. Varsity vs. MS makes a big difference for "benefit of the doubt" judgments.

[rsl]

Just found this while looking for something else ...

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player
is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

It seems that this answers the question pretty well, if only in a comment in the case book.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rsl

Just found this while looking for something else ...

Exactly why I always encourage officials to "look it up" before asking the question here. You will learn the answer to your question, and might learn something else along the way.