Captain

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes I did. Agree that that's the rule, but when referring to captains, I prefer to deal with practical aspect of identifying captains (for me that ends when they all show up at the meeting, while others like to narrow down the identification) rather than following the written rule (that assumes that some type of captain is always one of five players on the court at any one time) to somehow identify a captain as players and substitutes come in and out of the game.

Right, or wrong, as soon as the numerous captains walk away for the pregame meeting, I don't ever think about again captains throughout the rest of the game.

If the team member who shows up to the captain's meeting begins the game on the bench, then all that stuff you wrote is irrelevant when the game starts.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is always a captain on the floor.

It appears that Raymond is differentiating between those team members that are voted, or appointed, as team captains (those that show up at the pregame meeting), and those who are considered to be captains by virtue of the NFHS rule because they are one of the five players from a team on the floor at one time. Practical versus literal. I get it. I didn't, but I do now.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the team member who shows up to the captain's meeting begins the game on the bench, then all that stuff you wrote is irrelevant when the game starts.

I believe that I've got most of it covered.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2-7-1: The officials must conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For the jump ball, I just loudly state, "Everybody ready!", even if the "speaking" captain is on the bench, he can hear me.

Not in my pregame meeting, but I've had partners who will say to numerous captains at the end of the pregame meeting, "We'll be starting in two minutes (or whatever is on the clock)".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It appears that Raymond is differentiating between those team members that are voted, or appointed, as team captains (those that show up at the pregame meeting), and those who are considered to be captains by virtue of the NFHS rule because they are one of the five players from a team on the floor at one time. Practical versus literal. I get it. I didn't, but I do now.

Which answers the original question that started this thread. There is no rulebook reference to a speaking captain, so it's irrelevant if the team member who speaks in the captain's meeting is a starter. And we have a rule book definition that tells us a captain is by default one of the five players on the court.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Which answers the original question that started this thread. There is no rulebook reference to a speaking captain, so it's irrelevant if the team member who speaks in the captain's meeting is a starter. And we have a rule book definition that tells us a captain is by default one of the five players on the court.

Agree with you 100% (and have agreed with you throughout this thread, though the literal meaning of 3-1-1 was a slight surprise for me).

No "speaking" captains for me, and no "speaking" captains for the NFHS.

So tell Indianaref, not me.

I've actually had a game where the referee asked for a "speaking" captain, didn't ask if he was starting, and remembered his number. Not finding him on the court for the jump ball, he actually took a step, or two, toward the bench, and asked him if he was ready to start the game. I can't remember if he started his pregame meeting with, "It's the black line all the way around".

[Raymond]

So tell Indianaref, not me.

So what part of the pos where I said this answers the original question did you miss?

You're the one who debates everybody's answers as if they've given the wrong answer. So it's your fault if you feel like you're the target of a post that gives a definitive answer to the question that was asked in the first place.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... a post that gives a definitive answer to the question that was asked in the first place.

You are correct, I never gave a definitive cited answer to Indianaref, just my personal musings on how I deal with captains. In my defense, I actually thought that bob jenkins had covered it, but, as it turns out, not in as much detail as you. It also appears that your literal rule interpretation pretty much matches my "captain routine", if not by the literal rule language, than by purpose and intent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... my "captain routine" ... by purpose and intent ...

1) Invite all voted and/or appointed captains to pregame meeting with partner(s) and head coaches.
2) Announce, "Everybody ready!", before sounding whistle and tossing ball to start the game with a jump ball.
3) Answer questions from any team member (or coach) who approaches me politely.
4) Comply with any polite request from any team member (or coach) for a defensive match-up.
5) Use team leaders (or coaches) to calm down knucklehead team members.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Invite all voted and/or appointed captains to pregame meeting with partner(s) and head coaches.

Though pretty sure that most mechanics guidelines require such, I just discovered (or re-discovered) that NFHS rules don't require captains (of any type) at a pregame meeting.

2-4-4,5: The referee must: Be responsible for having each team notified three minutes before each half is to begin. Verify with the head coach, prior to each contest, that his/her team member’s uniforms and equipment are legal and will be worn properly, and that all participants will exhibit proper sporting behavior throughout the contest.

With the exception of correctable errors, I have not paid a lot of attention to Rule 2 Officials And Their Duties over the past forty years. Shame on me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... I've had partners who will say to numerous captains at the end of the pregame meeting, "We'll be starting in two minutes (or whatever is on the clock)".

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2) Announce, "Everybody ready!", before sounding whistle and tossing ball to start the game with a jump ball.

Some say that they fulfill this rule requirement (notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game) by sounding their whistle prior to the jump ball toss. To each his own. When in Rome ...

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Some say that they fulfill this rule requirement (notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game) by sounding their whistle prior to the jump ball toss. To each his own. When in Rome ...

It's a pity that basketball doesn't have a system like hockey where the captains have something on their jersey that identifies them. In hockey, the rule about only allowing captains (or alternate captains) to address the referee on rules matters is stringently enforced, because it is clear to the referees who is wearing the "C" or "A" on the jersey.

But then, the two games have evolved in different directions. In basketball, the captain is a relic of a prior time when coaches did not exist, so most of his duties are now performed by the coach. In hockey, the captains are still relevant, because the coach is stuck on the bench and is unable to talk to the referees, at least during live play. In basketball (except for the professional level), the jump ball is only used to start the game and overtime, but in hockey, the faceoff (that sport's equivalent) is the way to resume play, unless a penalty shot is appointed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

It's a pity that basketball doesn't have a system like hockey where the captains have something on their jersey that identifies them. In hockey, the rule about only allowing captains (or alternate captains) to address the referee on rules matters is stringently enforced, because it is clear to the referees who is wearing the "C" or "A" on the jersey.

When my daughter played college soccer she wore a captain's armband, not so in high school. Always wondered what rights and privileges came with the college soccer captain's armband?

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When my daughter played college soccer she wore a captain's armband, not so in high school. Always wondered what rights and privileges came with the college captain's armband?

I officiate soccer, too (and ice hockey). Captains in high school soccer (now) wear armbands (much more than when I was younger). They are the ones who can address the officials and are those we turn toward to take care of their respective teammates before we have to.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I officiate soccer, too (and ice hockey). Captains in high school (now) wear armbands (much more than when I was younger). They are the ones who can address the officials and are those we turn toward to take care of their respective teammates before we have to.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Maybe we should just make them pass a Burger King crown whenever captains swap out.

Better armbands than Burger King crowns.

[Kansas Ref]

I remember back when I first started officiating ; it was 7th grade girls a & b gamesets. My partner [the Referee] was a grizzled ole veteran ref of 50 plus years experience who, offered to let me conduct the pregame , "well, do you want to tell them the weather or you want me to do it?", he asked. Puzzled momentarily by his description, I paused not understanding that by that he meant the pregame session. Though gracious in his offer, I relented: no way it was my first game, I was already too nervous. So, he proceeded and briskly at the T minus 5:00 minute mark loudly announced: "Coaches and captains to center court!". I observed that without delay the participants immediately discontinued any engaged task and attentively appeared at his behest as if it were an Utterance. The Referee began: "this game is like your school classroom, the coaches are the teachers and the refs are your friends so respect them both. Ladies show me your numbers, ok we got 10 and 24, now you two ladies listen up you're the leaders so go back and tell your teammates to play defense with your feet not your hands, and show sportsmanship, helping a player up if you accidentally knock her down. And coaches let's us know what kind of timeout you're wanting, good luck and have fun!". Boy oh boy those players and coaches sure did behave in what I can perhaps most accurately say was an"intentionally polite" manner towards that ref (and myself though perhaps by default). I mean you should've seen how those players always gave ball to yhe ref , hustling yo retrieve errant balls, and how both coaches said things like "sorry my bad ref. Guess you saw it better,
or good cal ref my girl needs to get better at that. You're probably asking yourself why is kansas ref rambling on and on, well it's probably bcz there something to be gained by the use of a formality despite the arguments for its extinction.