Captain

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...
For the jump ball, I just loudly state, "Everybody ready!", even if the "speaking" captain is on the bench, he can hear me.
...

There is no such thing as a speaking captain, that's something officials make up.

By definition from 3-1-1, the captain is one of the five players on the court. So one of those five players is being addressed when you say "everybody ready". Who is on the bench is irrelevant.

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[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

By definition from 3-1-1, the captain is one of the five players on the court. So one of those five players is being addressed when you say "everybody ready". Who is on the bench is irrelevant.

I guess that means if the captain is substituted for, we need to ask who the new captain is.

Maybe we should just make them pass a Burger King crown whenever captains swap out. Has to be black, white, beige, or the predominant color of the jersey, of course…


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I guess that means if the captain is substituted for, we need to ask who the new captain is. Maybe we should just make them pass a Burger King crown whenever captains swap out.

I believe that I've already posted a nomination for Post O' The Month, but if I was allowed to nominate a second post for this highly prestigious award, this would be it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Must the captain or speaking captain be one of the five starting players?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Who is the "speaking" captain? ...

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is no such thing as a speaking captain, that's something officials make up ...

Of course there isn't. Which is why I put it in quotes.

But Indianaref mentioned it in his original post, and some officials will utilize the term. Those who use the term probably use it because of the singular nature of the rule ("one of whom is the captain") when confronted with more than one captain (as is often the case here in my little corner of Connecticut, and probably elsewhere), with "speaking" referring to rule language "may address an official on matters of interpretation or to obtain essential information".

My post above clearly indicates what I think of only identifying one, single captain, and whom I will, and will not "speak" to.

Since I don't identify one, single captain, nor do I ask if that one, single captain is starting, there is always a slight chance that the one, single captain may be on the bench to start the game, thus my general announcement, "Everybody ready!", to cover the "notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game" rule.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The captain is as outdated as two-handed set shots, laced basketballs, peach baskets, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court, an archaic, anachronistic formality.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course there isn't. Which is why I put it in quotes.



But Indianaref mentioned it in his original post, and some officials will utilize the term. Those who use the term probably use it because of the singular nature of the rule ("one of whom is the captain") when confronted with more than one captain (as is often the case here in my little corner of Connecticut, and probably elsewhere), with "speaking" referring to rule language "may address an official on matters of interpretation or to obtain essential information".



My post above clearly indicates what I think of only identifying one, single captain, and whom I will, and will not talk to.



Since I don't identify one, single captain, nor do I ask if that one, single captain is starting, there is always a slight chance that the one, single captain may be on the bench to start the game, thus my general announcement, "Everybody ready!", to cover the "notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game" rule.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if a team member at the captain's meeting begins the game on the bench. A captain is defined in the rule book as one of the five players on the court. There is always a captain on the floor.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if a team member at the captain's meeting begins the game on the bench. A captain is defined in the rule book as one of the five players on the court.

Yes I did. Agree that that's the rule, but when referring to captains, I prefer to deal with practical aspect of identifying captains (for me that ends when they all show up at the meeting, while others like to narrow down the identification) rather than following the written rule (that assumes that some type of a captain is always one of five players on the court at any one time) to somehow identify a captain as players and substitutes come in and out of the game.

Right, or wrong, as soon as the numerous captains walk away from the pregame meeting, I don't ever think about captains again throughout the rest of the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes I did. Agree that that's the rule, but when referring to captains, I prefer to deal with practical aspect of identifying captains (for me that ends when they all show up at the meeting, while others like to narrow down the identification) rather than following the written rule (that assumes that some type of captain is always one of five players on the court at any one time) to somehow identify a captain as players and substitutes come in and out of the game.

Right, or wrong, as soon as the numerous captains walk away for the pregame meeting, I don't ever think about again captains throughout the rest of the game.

If the team member who shows up to the captain's meeting begins the game on the bench, then all that stuff you wrote is irrelevant when the game starts.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the team member who shows up to the captain's meeting begins the game on the bench, then all that stuff you wrote is irrelevant when the game starts.

I believe that I've got most of it covered.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2-7-1: The officials must conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For the jump ball, I just loudly state, "Everybody ready!", even if the "speaking" captain is on the bench, he can hear me.

Not in my pregame meeting, but I've had partners who will say to numerous captains at the end of the pregame meeting, "We'll be starting in two minutes (or whatever is on the clock)".

[Kansas Ref]

I remember back when I first started officiating ; it was 7th grade girls a & b gamesets. My partner [the Referee] was a grizzled ole veteran ref of 50 plus years experience who, offered to let me conduct the pregame , "well, do you want to tell them the weather or you want me to do it?", he asked. Puzzled momentarily by his description, I paused not understanding that by that he meant the pregame session. Though gracious in his offer, I relented: no way it was my first game, I was already too nervous. So, he proceeded and briskly at the T minus 5:00 minute mark loudly announced: "Coaches and captains to center court!". I observed that without delay the participants immediately discontinued any engaged task and attentively appeared at his behest as if it were an Utterance. The Referee began: "this game is like your school classroom, the coaches are the teachers and the refs are your friends so respect them both. Ladies show me your numbers, ok we got 10 and 24, now you two ladies listen up you're the leaders so go back and tell your teammates to play defense with your feet not your hands, and show sportsmanship, helping a player up if you accidentally knock her down. And coaches let's us know what kind of timeout you're wanting, good luck and have fun!". Boy oh boy those players and coaches sure did behave in what I can perhaps most accurately say was an"intentionally polite" manner towards that ref (and myself though perhaps by default). I mean you should've seen how those players always gave ball to yhe ref , hustling yo retrieve errant balls, and how both coaches said things like "sorry my bad ref. Guess you saw it better,
or good cal ref my girl needs to get better at that. You're probably asking yourself why is kansas ref rambling on and on, well it's probably bcz there something to be gained by the use of a formality despite the arguments for its extinction.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The captain is as outdated as two-handed set shots, laced basketballs, peach baskets, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court, an archaic, anachronistic formality.

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

... there something to be gained by the use of a formality despite the arguments for its extinction.

Unlike the jump ball, that definitely should have become extinct with the invention of the alternating possession arrow (despite what Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. says), I do believe that there is still a place for the pregame coaches/captains/officials meeting. It sets the right tone for sportsmanship and honors the captains publicly in front of all the fans (full disclosure, I am the father of three children who have been captains in multiple sports in middle school, high school, and college).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The captain is as outdated as two-handed set shots, laced basketballs, peach baskets, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court, an archaic, anachronistic formality.

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

... there something to be gained by the use of a formality despite the arguments for its extinction.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I do believe that there is still a place for the pregame coaches/captains/officials meeting. It sets the right tone for sportsmanship and honors the captains publicly in front of all the fans.

However: Rules regarding notifying captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game, captains addressing an official on matters of interpretation or to obtain essential information, captains requesting defensive match-ups, and the singular nature of the captain’s role; along with casebook plays regarding captains designating free throwers, and requests for timeouts; should all be destroyed by an Earth-impacting asteroid.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is always a captain on the floor.

It appears that Raymond is differentiating between those team members that are voted, or appointed, as team captains (those that show up at the pregame meeting), and those who are considered to be captains by virtue of the NFHS rule because they are one of the five players from a team on the floor at one time. Practical versus literal. I get it. I didn't, but I do now.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It appears that Raymond is differentiating between those team members that are voted, or appointed, as team captains (those that show up at the pregame meeting), and those who are considered to be captains by virtue of the NFHS rule because they are one of the five players from a team on the floor at one time. Practical versus literal. I get it. I didn't, but I do now.

Which answers the original question that started this thread. There is no rulebook reference to a speaking captain, so it's irrelevant if the team member who speaks in the captain's meeting is a starter. And we have a rule book definition that tells us a captain is by default one of the five players on the court.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Which answers the original question that started this thread. There is no rulebook reference to a speaking captain, so it's irrelevant if the team member who speaks in the captain's meeting is a starter. And we have a rule book definition that tells us a captain is by default one of the five players on the court.

Agree with you 100% (and have agreed with you throughout this thread, though the literal meaning of 3-1-1 was a slight surprise for me).

No "speaking" captains for me, and no "speaking" captains for the NFHS.

So tell Indianaref, not me.

I've actually had a game where the referee asked for a "speaking" captain, didn't ask if he was starting, and remembered his number. Not finding him on the court for the jump ball, he actually took a step, or two, toward the bench, and asked him if he was ready to start the game. I can't remember if he started his pregame meeting with, "It's the black line all the way around".