Interesting Play

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a hole in the rule if you think that means it is getting up and others think otherwise.

You didn't say anything qualifying about anybody else, you said it straight up (see below, assuming "they" means the NFHS).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless they clarify what it means to get up that will be a hole in the rule.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... think that means it is getting up ...

I do not think that anybody is fully getting up here, rather, in my opinion, it's an "attempt to get up", as the rule states.

Once one deems her actions as an attempt to get up, it's illegal, don't have to wait for the "get up" to be completed.

Others may deem her actions not an attempt to get up.

That's why it's a subjective judgement call, one of dozens of subjective judgement calls that we are expected to make in a typical basketball game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Once one deems her actions as an attempt to get up, it illegal, don't have to wait for the "get up" to be completed.

Having nothing to do with the debate in this thread so far, it's interesting that the official in the video waits until the player starts her dribble, and completes three dribbles, to sound his whistle.

Patient whistle, late whistle, or just needed time to think about it?

[WI_Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Having nothing to do with the debate in this thread so far, it's interesting that the official in the video waits until the player starts her dribble, and completes three dribbles, to sound his whistle.

Patient whistle, late whistle, or just needed time to think about it?

Time to think about....they didn't know what they saw and waited to hear someone yell out travel It definitely looked weird.....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

... they didn't know what they saw and waited to hear someone yell out travel ...

Always appreciate help from fans.

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

It definitely looked weird ...

Remember, weird doesn't always mean illegal.

[Mike Goodwin]

I can't see the video all that well, but I'll give my impression of it just the same. The player in white secures the ball from a prone position and "retracts" her body such that she is on both knees. Legal so far.

This part isn't clear on my screen, but if the player lifted her left knee before she started her dribble, and that is why the official ruled a traveling violation, then I agree with him.

I use 4.44.5 Situation C for support. Lifting the knee before starting a dribble (or moving the whole left leg in the case of this video), was an attempt to get up (rise to one's feet, i.e., stand), as evidenced by the fact that she did stand up just about the time the official ruled a violation.

[Camron Rust]

This play is traveling.

This case plays details what the player may do.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

The case says they may sit up if they're on their back. It doesn't say they can rise to their knees if they're on their belly. If that were to be legal, it would be listed. Further, the travel rule is one that is based on listing what is legal and what is not specified as legal isn't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Camron Rust discovered possible exceptions to this adage in a recent thread about fumbles, which maybe not coincidentally, was also about travelling.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... the travel rule is one that is based on listing what is legal and what is not specified as legal isn't.

Which, from this point on is to be referred to as "The Camron Rust Adage" Ⓒ 2021 Camron Rust

Add it to the old adage list, that includes, among others, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

... the player lifted her left knee ...

Ah, it's the old lift the pivot knee trick. Gets them every time.

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I use 4.44.5 Situation C for support.

4.44.5 SITUATION C: A1 secures possession of the ball with one knee in contact with the floor. May A1 assume a standing position without committing a traveling violation? RULING: It depends on what A1 does. If A1 attempts to stand up while holding the ball, a traveling violation occurs. However, if A1 starts a dribble and then rises, no violation has occurred. Also, A1 could pass, try for goal or request a time-out from that position.

[Bob Martin]

It seems to me if I was lying on my belly and wanted to get up I would rise to my knees first. Just a thought.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Bob Martin

It seems to me if I was lying on my belly and wanted to get up I would rise to my knees first. Just a thought.

There's always the "push up method".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Bob Martin

It seems to me if I was lying on my belly and wanted to get up I would rise to my knees first. Just a thought.

Yeah, but the rule does not say going to your knees in itself is illegal. If it did, then that would solve the confusion.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You didn't say anything qualifying about anybody else, you said it straight up (see below, assuming "they" means the NFHS).


I do not think that anybody is getting up here, rather, in my opinion, it's an "attempt to get up", as the rule states.

Once one deems her actions as an attempt to get up, it's illegal, don't have to wait for the "get up" to be completed.

Others may deem her actions not an attempt to get up.

That's why it's a subjective judgement call, one of dozens of subjective judgement calls that we are expected to make in a typical basketball game.

There is nothing in the rule that says that coming to your knees is illegal or an attempt to get up. They address what you do on your back, but never address what that means. So again this is legal until stated otherwise and your stating otherwise does not and will not change my mind. So please stop trying.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is nothing in the rule that says that coming to your knees is illegal or an attempt to get up.

Agree. But anything deemed by an official to be an attempt to get up is illegal.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless they clarify what it means to get up that will be a hole in the rule.

Agree.

With her entire body flat on the floor on her stomach, she puts her left hand firmly on the floor with a bent elbow and straightens her arm, pushing upward, causing her upper legs, entire torso, including hips, head, and both arms to all move upward in unison, eventually getting to her knees.

Is that an attempt to get up?

Some (JRutledge and Raymond), with good reason, say no.

I, and the official in the video, with good reason, say yes.

It's a subjective judgement call.

Is it an attempt to get up even before she gets to her knees?

It's a subjective judgement call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. But anything deemed by an official to be an attempt to get up is illegal.

If you say so.


People are allowed to read the interpretations and decide what it means. This to me is not an attempt to get up and in my game, I am not calling a violation. I have seen this before and never called a violation. You have to do more than come to your knees. And if the NF wants more specifics, they can provide them. We do not need your approval for that position. I actually live closer to the NF office than you do. This is not a big issue, but you always make it bigger and debate with yourself while telling others what they should feel at the same time. I do not care what your opinion on the ruling is. I would not ask for clarification on this play. I gave my opinion, stand by it. If they want to come to both your knees to be a violation, state that in the next interpretation.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... anything deemed by an official to be an attempt to get up is illegal.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you say so.

I do, but more importantly, the rule book and casebook interpretation say so.

4-44-5-B: A player holding the ball: After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This to me is not an attempt to get up and in my game, I am not calling a violation.

And if I was lucky enough to be your partner, and I happened to see the play, I wouldn't question your call. Not at all. In fact, if it happened again in our game I would try to mirror your call. It's a subjective judgement call.