The Most Misunderstood NFHS Basketball Rules ...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

The problem is that there is no rule that says anything about a player always being able to pick up a fumble but there is a rule that says a player only has two options once he/she jumps.

This is not unlike the situation where a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard....it is treated as if it were a try for most purposes even though it actually isn't a try since the player wasn't actually trying to throw the ball into the basket.

Consider also the case where a player lying on the floor sits the ball down, gets up while not holding the ball, then picks up the ball. This is considered a travel. Why? It is deemed that the player is circumventing the intended rules.

The fumble on a try is essentially the same thing. Players will make it appear to be a fumble to circumvent the rules once they go airborne and find they have nowhere to go. Once they jump, they have two options by rule: pass or shoot. Anything else is considered a de facto dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The problem is that there is no rule that says anything about a player always being able to pick up a fumble but there is a rule that says a player only has two options once he/she jumps. This is not unlike the situation where a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard....it is treated as if it were a try for most purposes even though it actually isn't a try since the player wasn't actually trying to throw the ball into the basket. Consider also the case where a player lying on the floor sits the ball down, gets up while not holding the ball, then picks up the ball. This is considered a travel. Why? It is deemed that the player is circumventing the intended rules. The fumble on a try is essentially the same thing. Players will make it appear to be a fumble to circumvent the rules once they go airborne and find they have nowhere to go. Once they jump, they have two options by rule: pass or shoot. Anything else is considered a de facto dribble.

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Great points (as was your earlier post) and great examples. My list existed for almost fifteen years without this situation. It was a very recent addition after a video interpretation by IAABO (not the NFHS). While Camron Rust, Raymond, and others may be right, it's still not a 100% fact in my mind, so I'm leaving it off the list, which doesn't mean the IAABO interpretation (and Camron Rust and Raymond) is wrong, it just means that it's not on my list, as many rules and interpretations are not on my list (though it's quite lengthy, probably too lengthy).

If this situation appears on a written exam, I take a chance on an incorrect answer of calling picking up this fumbled try a legal play. If this situation happens in a real game in real time, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "Fumble" (not "He dropped it"), I'll pass on a whistle, and if anybody complains, I'll confidently explain "It was a fumble", and unless it was the final play of a tied game, my call will probably be forgotten.

Camron Rust: In your great, well written, rational post, why did you call it a de facto dribble? Why not just "dribble"? De facto means being in effect though not formally recognized. So, is it a formally recognized dribble, or is it not a formally recognized dribble? By choosing the phrase "de facto" are you consciously, or unconsciously admitting that this situation may be a "gap" or "blind spot" in the rules, as posted by Raymond earlier?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Great points (as was your earlier post) and great examples. My list existed for almost fifteen years without this situation. It was a very recent addition after a video interpretation by IAABO (not the NFHS). While Camron Rust, Raymond, and others may be right, it's still not a 100% fact in my mind, so I'm leaving it off the list, which doesn't mean the IAABO interpretation (and Camron Rust and Raymond) is wrong, it just means that it's not on my list, as many rules and interpretations are not on my list (though it's quite lengthy, probably too lengthy).

If this situation appears on a written exam, I take a chance on an incorrect answer of calling picking up this fumbled try a legal play. If this situation happens in a real game in real time, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "Fumble" (not "He dropped it"), I'll pass on a whistle, and if anybody complains, I'll confidently explain "It was a fumble", and unless it was the final play of a tied game, my call will probably be forgotten.

Camron Rust: In your great, well written, rational post, why did you call it a de facto dribble? Why not just "dribble"? De facto means being in effect though not formally recognized. So, is it a formally recognized dribble, or is it not a formally recognized dribble? By choosing the phrase "de facto" are you consciously, or unconsciously admitting that this situation may be a "gap" or "blind spot" in the rules, as posted by Raymond earlier?

I called it a de facto dribble because it isn't technically a dribble but is treated as if it were one....the same as throwing the ball isn't a try but is treated as if it were a try in most respects. Another one...a shooter who has released the ball and crashes into a legal defender is called for a player control foul even though they don't actually have player control at that point. In fact, this last one might be the best comparison...a player that jumps in an attempt to shoot is treated as if they have player control in most respects until they land....thus fumbling doesn't get them out of the traveling rule any more than releasing the ball on a shot gets them out of player control foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... fumbling doesn't get them out of the traveling rule any more than releasing the ball on a shot gets them out of player control foul.

Brilliant, but still not on my list.

Thanks for your time and effort. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. Much appreciated. It wasn't in vain. You haven't completely changed my mind, but have left me scratching my head.

I wish the NFHS had a caseplay with a fumble.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

Interesting that the player is said to touch the ball after it bounces. Many Forum members (I have agreed for a written exam) have discussed that one doesn't have to wait for the touch, but if one deems it the start of a dribble, then it's the start of a dribble, and if one deems it the start of a bounce pass, then it's the start of a bounce pass, as a literal interpretation of the rules.

Wonder why the NFHS specifically stated "touches it first after it bounces"?

Is it possible that the NFHS wants us to wait for a touch to insure that this is not the start of a legal bounce pass?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

Couldn't (b) be considered a blocked shot and play on?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Can't (b) be considered a blocked shot and play on?

No.

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it.

IRL, it's judgment, of course, whether A is prevented from releasing the ball and then fumbles it, or the shot is blocked out of A1's hands. In the play, it's a given

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No ... it's judgment, of course, whether A is prevented from releasing the ball and then fumbles it, or the shot is blocked out of A1's hands. In the play, it's a given

Thanks bob jenkins.

So this (below) part of my list isn't true.

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball ... the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot.

It's been on my list for almost fifteen years, published annually on the Forum, in an IAABO Sportorials magazine available to 15,000 IAABO members, duplicated on many basketball officiating websites, and nobody ever complained about it.

I hate this entire attempted shot paragraph. But it's necessary. I just have to write it better.

The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt, or if the ball hits the backboard. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. If, in another similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start a dribble at that point. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

[BillyMac]

... "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto yo.:”

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I wish the NFHS had a caseplay with a fumble.

2000-2001 NFHS Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1
Situation 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. Ruling: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Found this while looking for something else today.

[BillyMac]

I have now separated these somewhat similar situations into three different paragraphs.

The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt, or if the ball hits the backboard. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

If a defender puts a hand(s) on a ball controlled by airborne shooter (or passer), such that the airborne player is unable to release the ball, that player has not traveled, it is a held ball. If, in another similar situation, the airborne player loses control of the ball because of the touch, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start a dribble at that point. If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne player chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation.

When an airborne player tries for goal (or passes), sees that the try (or pass) will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. If an airborne shooter is preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt, and instead of releasing the ball on the try fumbles the ball (while still in the air), drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s a traveling violation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto yo.:”



2000-2001 NFHS Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1
Situation 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. Ruling: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Found this while looking for something else today.

Yes, the NFHS has long ago spoken on this matter. Some will still insist otherwise, however.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, the NFHS has long ago spoken on this matter. Some will still insist otherwise, however.

I was one of those who insisted otherwise, but I've been "born again" after finding this twenty-one year old interpretation.