Assistant Kneeling

[BryanV21]

I'm having trouble finding anything in the rule book to back me up or tell me I was wrong, so I thought I'd bring it up to you guys...

Last night I had a situation in which I was the "C" on the table side of the court. While trying to get into position (foul line extended) an assistant coach was kneeling in front of a player seated on the bench, and he was in my way. I'd normally just let this go, but since he was in my way I yelled over my shoulder that only the head coach could be off the bench. I was ignored, so I said it again, only to hear another assistant (it was a female voice, so I knew it wasn't the guy that was kneeling) say "he's coaching a player". I responded, "it doesn't matter, assistants need to be seated". Again I hear her say "he's coaching a player". So after seeing that the ball was settled I blew my whistle, turned to the head coach, and told him that only he can be up off the bench during play. The head coach got argumentative about it so I gave him a warning and had it put in the book. The head coach proceeded to yell, so my partner came over and I moved to the other side of the court.

His yelling was over the top, but I decided not to issue a technical foul, and let my partner handle things... which she did without giving a tech, and the game moved on.

My question is, did I have the right to say the assistant needed to be seated, or is kneeling in front of a player okay? I remember when I played assistant coaches would either sit with me at the end of the bench or have a player move to another chair so the player the assistant wanted to speak with could sit next to him.

And am I doing my partners, or future officials of that team, a disservice by not making the assistant coaches sit whether they are in my way or not?

[Raymond]

I don't know the exact wording of the rule off the top of my head.

If the AC is in the way, instead of saying they need to be seated, I'm probably going to tell the HC the AC needs to move while we (anyone in the crew) is in that position.

If at that point they want to be a-holes about it, then I break out my a-hole card and tell them the AC needs to be seated, and if I get continued flack I give a bench conduct warning.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

... did I have the right to say the assistant needed to be seated ...

Tell the assistant coach to sit down (you can request politely if you like). If he doesn't, give a written team warning, emphasizing to the head coach (again politely if you like) that this is his responsibility and if it continues it will be an indirect foul on him. If assistant coach still doesn't comply, charge the assistant coach with a technical foul, charge the head coach with a indirect foul, and ask them (maybe politely) to both enjoy their court-side seats on the bench.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm having trouble finding anything in the rule book to back me up...

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't know the exact wording of the rule off the top of my head ...

Got it covered.

10-5-4: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Stand at the team bench while the clock is running or is stopped, and must remain seated, except: a. The head coach as in 10-6-1. b. When a team member is reporting to the scorer’s table. c. During a charged time-out, as in 5-11, or the intermission between quarters and extra periods. d. To spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a team member or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to his/her seat.

Not that you should do this (over forty years for me, never in a scholastic game, just recreation, travel, AAU, coaches who don't have an athletic director, principal, or school superintendent to answer to), but if everybody continues to be knuckleheads, remember that adult bench personnel can be ejected from the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

... am I doing my partners, or future officials of that team, a disservice by not making the assistant coaches sit whether they are in my way or not?

Thank you for not ignoring bad behavior.

Next time you will have all the rule backing that you will need to take care of business.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm having trouble finding anything in the rule book to back me up or tell me I was wrong, so I thought I'd bring it up to you guys...

Last night I had a situation in which I was the "C" on the table side of the court. While trying to get into position (foul line extended) an assistant coach was kneeling in front of a player seated on the bench, and he was in my way. I'd normally just let this go, but since he was in my way I yelled over my shoulder that only the head coach could be off the bench. I was ignored, so I said it again, only to hear another assistant (it was a female voice, so I knew it wasn't the guy that was kneeling) say "he's coaching a player". I responded, "it doesn't matter, assistants need to be seated". Again I hear her say "he's coaching a player". So after seeing that the ball was settled I blew my whistle, turned to the head coach, and told him that only he can be up off the bench during play. The head coach got argumentative about it so I gave him a warning and had it put in the book. The head coach proceeded to yell, so my partner came over and I moved to the other side of the court.

His yelling was over the top, but I decided not to issue a technical foul, and let my partner handle things... which she did without giving a tech, and the game moved on.

My question is, did I have the right to say the assistant needed to be seated, or is kneeling in front of a player okay? I remember when I played assistant coaches would either sit with me at the end of the bench or have a player move to another chair so the player the assistant wanted to speak with could sit next to him.

And am I doing my partners, or future officials of that team, a disservice by not making the assistant coaches sit whether they are in my way or not?

1) Only the HC can utilize the Coaching Box.

2) ACs' tuchuses remain glued to the Bench.


My experience is usually finds both the HC and an AC utilizing the Coaching Bench at the same time and a simple reminder, as you move past the HC, to the HC that ACs must remain seated works 99% of the time. Ah, but that 1%, unless taken care of immediately can come back to bite one in his/her tuchus/tuch.

It is not against the Rules for an AC to be coaching players while the Ball is in Play but the AC must do it what seated. It is when an AC is not seated and his/her postion on the Side Line impedes the movement of the Players and the Game Officials that causes problems for the Game Officials.

A) Impeding the movement of the Players: This has to be addressed immediately and is almost always a DTF charged to the AC and an IDTF charged to the HC. If there is contact between the AC and an opposing Player, in my opinion, is an automatic DTF.

B) It should be noted that the Coaching Box does not necessarily protect the HC from impeding the movement of the Player. See: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...t-3-607-a.html and Comments (permalinks) on: Page 2 of 5 for #27 and #29, and Page 3 of 5 for #36, and #43. The game mentioned in #29 was a game in which I was the U and the L in a pressing situation when my partner, Daryl H. Long, who is an esteemed member of the Forum was the Administering Official and made the Call; and there is more to this Play, but I digress. And the information given by Chuck in #36 is very good information.

In the Situation we are discussing I cannot voice a definite opinion with regard to the initial problem with the AC. I know that if there had been contact between the AC and me, the probability of a DTF charged to the AC and an IDTF charged to the HC would have been 99.999,999%, oh hell everyone knows I would have whacked him.

If I had passed on the TFs there would have been no passing on any TFs when the second AC commented. One cannot have one AC illegally utilizing the Coaching Box and a second AC running his/her mouth at the Game Official in this Situation.

MTD, Sr.

[BryanV21]

Thank you all so much for the replies. I always feel bad when my partner has to deal with something that I initiated (of course, the AC actually initiated the situation, but by choosing not to ignore it when it wasn't a "big" problem I took part in things). So I needed the assurance that this situation was not something I created out of nothing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

... choosing not to ignore it ...

BryanV21 was 100% correct to not ignore and to address this behavior.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Thank you all so much for the replies. I always feel bad when my partner has to deal with something that I initiated (of course, the AC actually initiated the situation, but by choosing not to ignore it when it wasn't a "big" problem I took part in things). So I needed the assurance that this situation was not something I created out of nothing.

I think you were right to address it, but I think the way you did it could be better. "Coach, I appreciate that you are just trying to coach your player, but I need you to do that from the bench, please, so I can work here."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Coach, I appreciate that you are just trying to coach your player, but I need you to do that from the bench, please, so I can work here."

Tart words make no friends; a spoonful of honey will catch more flies than a gallon of vinegar. (Benjamin Franklin)

[JRutledge]

You can say all the nice words and there are coaches that will completely argue with you. So I do not spend a lot of time trying to be nice. "Coach you cannot be there, you must sit as you do not have coaching box privileges."

We had a kid last night that was bleeding and was bleeding on his mask. When we noticed this we told the coach the player had to be replaced. He was given a new mask and thought he could stay. I had to tell the coach, we need a sub for blood on a player. He sent the player back to the table and the table blew the horn and the player came back in. I sent the kid back and told the coach, "He has to sit until the clock runs." All the coach did was give me blowback and all I told him was the rule.

You can be nice to these guys and direct and they still will make an issue out of stuff. This idea of being nice is a fallacy. It does not solve everything if the participants think they know better than you do.

Peace

[BryanV21]

The coaches response to what I said (screaming and getting in my face), which may not have been delivered with kids gloves on but absolutely wasn't done so in an a-hole manner either, shows me that no matter how I said what I said things weren't going to go smoothly.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... kid last night that was bleeding a ... told the coach the player had to be replaced ... "He has to sit until the clock runs." ...

... or get him back in immediately (assuming blood issue is dealt with quickly) with a timeout.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can be nice to these guys and direct and they still will make an issue out of stuff. This idea of being nice is a fallacy.

Different coaches. Different officials. Different ways of interacting. Do whatever works. Sometimes a stick. Sometimes a carrot. Sometimes something else.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The coaches response to what I said (screaming and getting in my face), which may not have been delivered with kids gloves on but absolutely wasn't done so in an a-hole manner either, shows me that no matter how I said what I said things weren't going to go smoothly.

That is the mythology of what we do. We think if you are nice and speak in these wonderful tones, that coaches and players react in a certain fashion. They often have an issue no matter what. The coach I was talking about from jump looked like he did not want to be there (the team was winless in like 5 games and lost by 50 last night too). So the idea that you will just speak in a way and makes everyone comply is crap. Some coaches especially just want to challenge stuff and there is nothing you can do to say it. You have a right to tell a coach the rule and be direct about it. It is up to them to take the information and to comply or challenge what you are saying. This is business, not personal much of the time.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The head coach got argumentative about it so I gave him a warning and had it put in the book. The head coach proceeded to yell ... His yelling was over the top ...

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The coaches response ... screaming and getting in my face ...

Do I sense regret here for not charging a technical foul?

From my own personal experiences, I have seldom regretted technical fouls that I have charged, and have often regretted technical fouls that I didn't charge.