The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 179
Casebook 7.5.7 sit A.

Doing some late night reading last night and came upon this in the book.
Can someone please explain this to me?

Quote:
B1 goaltends on airborne shooter A1's try. A1 fouls B1 before returning to the floor.

Ruling: Since no free throws result from the player control foul, B's throw-in is from anywhere along the endline because of the awarded goal for B1's goaltending violation.

My head is thinking, why does the goaltending count on a player control foul? We wouldn't count a regular basket.
And if there's a goaltending, the ball would become dead at that point and any foul after that point would have to be a dead ball technical or flagrant foul. But it clearly says A1 is still an airborne shooter, so we don't have that.

So maybe I just don't know enough about my goaltending rules to know that this basket should count.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:35am
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
The violation happened before the PC foul, and we can't ignore the violation?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:39am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Awarded Basket ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
Can someone please explain this to me?
7.5.7 SITUATION A: B1 goaltends on airborne shooter A1’s try. A1 fouls B1 in returning to the floor. RULING: Since no free throws result from the player-control foul, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line because of the awarded goal for B1’s goaltending violation. (9-12 Penalty 1)

9-12-Penalty 1: A player must not commit goaltending, as in 4-22 … If the violation is at the opponent’s basket, the opponents are awarded one point if during a free throw, three points if during a three point try and two points in any other case.


Agree with Blindolbat that this casebook play has always been very perplexing.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that the local explanation here in my little corner of Connecticut has always been that while true that a basket can't be "scored" under "normal" player control circumstances, the basket can sometimes be "awarded".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 11:41am.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
Doing some late night reading last night and came upon this in the book.
Can someone please explain this to me?




My head is thinking, why does the goaltending count on a player control foul? We wouldn't count a regular basket.
And if there's a goaltending, the ball would become dead at that point and any foul after that point would have to be a dead ball technical or flagrant foul. But it clearly says A1 is still an airborne shooter, so we don't have that.

So maybe I just don't know enough about my goaltending rules to know that this basket should count.
The goaltending happened first. So, A gets two (or three) points.

A1 was still airborne -- so it's still a PC foul.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:15pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Always Listen To bob ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The goaltending happened first. So, A gets two (or three) points. A1 was still airborne -- so it's still a PC foul.
Nice.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:15pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
The foul doesn't negate the violation that already occurred. The penalty for the violation is an award of 2 points.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 12:19pm.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:20pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
The Foul Doesn't Negate The Violation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... the local explanation here in my little corner of Connecticut has always been that while true that a basket can't be "scored" under "normal" player control circumstances, the basket can sometimes be "awarded".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The foul doesn't negate the violation. The penalty for the violation is an award of 2 points.
Agree.

Raymond reminded me of the exact wording of our local explanation (probably brought up as a "contested" exam question answer, or when I served on the rules training committee): "The foul doesn't negate the violation".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:27pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
May Not, At First, Seem To Make Sense ...

Another "may not, at first, seem to make sense" interpretation.

Along the same lines as a "blarge", where with no additional block called, no basket; but the addition of a block changes it from a player control foul to a double foul, and the penalty for a double foul allows for the basket to be scored.

Yet another reason why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 04:23pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:49pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Let's Go To The Videotape ...

Rule 6 - Section 7
Dead Ball
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
Art. 4 . . . A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
Art. 5 . . . An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
Art. 9 . . . A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).
Exception: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap for field goal ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent (leave the court for an unauthorized reason, excessively arms).
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 01:18pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
Doing some late night reading last night and came upon this in the book.
Can someone please explain this to me?




My head is thinking, why does the goaltending count on a player control foul? We wouldn't count a regular basket.
And if there's a goaltending, the ball would become dead at that point and any foul after that point would have to be a dead ball technical or flagrant foul. But it clearly says A1 is still an airborne shooter, so we don't have that.

So maybe I just don't know enough about my goaltending rules to know that this basket should count.
That is also perplexing. The violation should render the ball dead, however, a specific exception to the rules makes fouls on or by an airborne shooter personal fouls, and thus renders a foul by an airborne shooter a player-control foul, even though his team no longer controls the ball by any definition.

The violation penalty then comes into effect, because the violation made the ball dead, not the foul. This is the reason why a player who was fouled in the act of shooting, scores, but has the basket taken away by basket interference on the part of a teammate, shoots free throws. In this case, the violation penalty awards A the points they would have earned on the field goal.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 06:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
That is also perplexing. The violation should render the ball dead, however, a specific exception to the rules makes fouls on or by an airborne shooter personal fouls, and thus renders a foul by an airborne shooter a player-control foul, even though his team no longer controls the ball by any definition.

The violation penalty then comes into effect, because the violation made the ball dead, not the foul. This is the reason why a player who was fouled in the act of shooting, scores, but has the basket taken away by basket interference on the part of a teammate, shoots free throws. In this case, the violation penalty awards A the points they would have earned on the field goal.
The only thing which is perplexing is your convoluted and confusing post, which also contains several factual errors of NFHS rules.

Here are the clear facts:
The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation.
Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead.

Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal.

The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 06:48pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 09:11pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Zombie Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Here are the clear facts: The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation. Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead. Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal. The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.
Thanks for he great explanation Nevadaref.

But how can we have two dead balls on the same play?

6-7-9, the goaltending, makes the ball dead first. Check its pulse, it's dead.

Then 6-7-4, the player control foul, give the ball the coup de grâce and makes it really dead for good.

What's the rule citation for the "zombie" ball between the goaltend and the player control foul?

Why does one act make the ball "deader" than the other act?

Dead is dead? Like a door nail? Right?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 09:21pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 09:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks for he great explanation Nevadaref.

But how can we have two dead balls on the same play?

6-7-9, the goaltending, makes the ball dead first. Check its pulse, it's dead.

Then 6-7-4, the player control foul, give the ball the coup de grâce and makes it really dead for good.

What's the rule citation for the "zombie" ball between the goaltend and the player control foul?

Why does one act make the ball "deader" than the other act?

Dead is dead? Like a door nail? Right?
If the ball is not dead after the first goal tend, what happens if somebody else also goal tends it or commits basket interference?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 10:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
if the ball is not dead after the first goal tend, what happens if somebody else also goal tends it or commits basket interference?
2-3
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The only thing which is perplexing is your convoluted and confusing post, which also contains several factual errors of NFHS rules.

Here are the clear facts:
The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation.
Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead.

Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal.

The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.
Ok. This is the most clear explanation I've heard or read regarding this. I appreciate everyone chiming in. A very rare situation I would have missed until now
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ASA Casebook 7.6-7 jmkupka Softball 1 Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:18am
6-4-3 casebook fullor30 Basketball 1 Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:09pm
Casebook help Ch1town Football 11 Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41am
Casebook ? Chess Ref Softball 4 Thu Jun 28, 2007 06:09pm
NF Casebook 6.5.4 sit dumbref Football 9 Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:27am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1