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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:16am
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Casebook 7.5.7 sit A.

Doing some late night reading last night and came upon this in the book.
Can someone please explain this to me?

Quote:
B1 goaltends on airborne shooter A1's try. A1 fouls B1 before returning to the floor.

Ruling: Since no free throws result from the player control foul, B's throw-in is from anywhere along the endline because of the awarded goal for B1's goaltending violation.

My head is thinking, why does the goaltending count on a player control foul? We wouldn't count a regular basket.
And if there's a goaltending, the ball would become dead at that point and any foul after that point would have to be a dead ball technical or flagrant foul. But it clearly says A1 is still an airborne shooter, so we don't have that.

So maybe I just don't know enough about my goaltending rules to know that this basket should count.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:35am
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The violation happened before the PC foul, and we can't ignore the violation?

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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:39am
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Awarded Basket ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
Can someone please explain this to me?
7.5.7 SITUATION A: B1 goaltends on airborne shooter A1’s try. A1 fouls B1 in returning to the floor. RULING: Since no free throws result from the player-control foul, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line because of the awarded goal for B1’s goaltending violation. (9-12 Penalty 1)

9-12-Penalty 1: A player must not commit goaltending, as in 4-22 … If the violation is at the opponent’s basket, the opponents are awarded one point if during a free throw, three points if during a three point try and two points in any other case.


Agree with Blindolbat that this casebook play has always been very perplexing.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that the local explanation here in my little corner of Connecticut has always been that while true that a basket can't be "scored" under "normal" player control circumstances, the basket can sometimes be "awarded".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 11:41am.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
Doing some late night reading last night and came upon this in the book.
Can someone please explain this to me?




My head is thinking, why does the goaltending count on a player control foul? We wouldn't count a regular basket.
And if there's a goaltending, the ball would become dead at that point and any foul after that point would have to be a dead ball technical or flagrant foul. But it clearly says A1 is still an airborne shooter, so we don't have that.

So maybe I just don't know enough about my goaltending rules to know that this basket should count.
The goaltending happened first. So, A gets two (or three) points.

A1 was still airborne -- so it's still a PC foul.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:15pm
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Always Listen To bob ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The goaltending happened first. So, A gets two (or three) points. A1 was still airborne -- so it's still a PC foul.
Nice.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:15pm
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The foul doesn't negate the violation that already occurred. The penalty for the violation is an award of 2 points.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 12:19pm.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:20pm
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The Foul Doesn't Negate The Violation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... the local explanation here in my little corner of Connecticut has always been that while true that a basket can't be "scored" under "normal" player control circumstances, the basket can sometimes be "awarded".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The foul doesn't negate the violation. The penalty for the violation is an award of 2 points.
Agree.

Raymond reminded me of the exact wording of our local explanation (probably brought up as a "contested" exam question answer, or when I served on the rules training committee): "The foul doesn't negate the violation".
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:27pm
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May Not, At First, Seem To Make Sense ...

Another "may not, at first, seem to make sense" interpretation.

Along the same lines as a "blarge", where with no additional block called, no basket; but the addition of a block changes it from a player control foul to a double foul, and the penalty for a double foul allows for the basket to be scored.

Yet another reason why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 04:23pm.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:49pm
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Let's Go To The Videotape ...

Rule 6 - Section 7
Dead Ball
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
Art. 4 . . . A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
Art. 5 . . . An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
Art. 9 . . . A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).
Exception: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap for field goal ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent (leave the court for an unauthorized reason, excessively arms).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 01:18pm.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
Doing some late night reading last night and came upon this in the book.
Can someone please explain this to me?




My head is thinking, why does the goaltending count on a player control foul? We wouldn't count a regular basket.
And if there's a goaltending, the ball would become dead at that point and any foul after that point would have to be a dead ball technical or flagrant foul. But it clearly says A1 is still an airborne shooter, so we don't have that.

So maybe I just don't know enough about my goaltending rules to know that this basket should count.
That is also perplexing. The violation should render the ball dead, however, a specific exception to the rules makes fouls on or by an airborne shooter personal fouls, and thus renders a foul by an airborne shooter a player-control foul, even though his team no longer controls the ball by any definition.

The violation penalty then comes into effect, because the violation made the ball dead, not the foul. This is the reason why a player who was fouled in the act of shooting, scores, but has the basket taken away by basket interference on the part of a teammate, shoots free throws. In this case, the violation penalty awards A the points they would have earned on the field goal.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 06:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
That is also perplexing. The violation should render the ball dead, however, a specific exception to the rules makes fouls on or by an airborne shooter personal fouls, and thus renders a foul by an airborne shooter a player-control foul, even though his team no longer controls the ball by any definition.

The violation penalty then comes into effect, because the violation made the ball dead, not the foul. This is the reason why a player who was fouled in the act of shooting, scores, but has the basket taken away by basket interference on the part of a teammate, shoots free throws. In this case, the violation penalty awards A the points they would have earned on the field goal.
The only thing which is perplexing is your convoluted and confusing post, which also contains several factual errors of NFHS rules.

Here are the clear facts:
The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation.
Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead.

Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal.

The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 06:48pm.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 09:11pm
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Zombie Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Here are the clear facts: The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation. Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead. Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal. The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.
Thanks for he great explanation Nevadaref.

But how can we have two dead balls on the same play?

6-7-9, the goaltending, makes the ball dead first. Check its pulse, it's dead.

Then 6-7-4, the player control foul, give the ball the coup de grce and makes it really dead for good.

What's the rule citation for the "zombie" ball between the goaltend and the player control foul?

Why does one act make the ball "deader" than the other act?

Dead is dead? Like a door nail? Right?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 09:21pm.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 09:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks for he great explanation Nevadaref.

But how can we have two dead balls on the same play?

6-7-9, the goaltending, makes the ball dead first. Check its pulse, it's dead.

Then 6-7-4, the player control foul, give the ball the coup de grce and makes it really dead for good.

What's the rule citation for the "zombie" ball between the goaltend and the player control foul?

Why does one act make the ball "deader" than the other act?

Dead is dead? Like a door nail? Right?
If the ball is not dead after the first goal tend, what happens if somebody else also goal tends it or commits basket interference?
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 10:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
if the ball is not dead after the first goal tend, what happens if somebody else also goal tends it or commits basket interference?
2-3
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2021, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The only thing which is perplexing is your convoluted and confusing post, which also contains several factual errors of NFHS rules.

Here are the clear facts:
The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation.
Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead.

Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal.

The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.
Ok. This is the most clear explanation I've heard or read regarding this. I appreciate everyone chiming in. A very rare situation I would have missed until now
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