Casebook 7.5.7 sit A.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's the rule citation for the "zombie" ball between the goaltend and the player control foul? Why does one act make the ball "deader" than the other act? Dead is dead? Like a door nail? Right?

Since the goaltend made the ball dead, wouldn't the player control foul have to be intentional or flagrant to not ignore, and thus technical?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Since the goaltend made the ball dead, wouldn't the player control foul have to be intentional or flagrant to not ignore, and thus technical?

I agree the goal tending causes the ball to become dead (exception 4 applies to swinging the elbows and to leaving the court, not to other violations, although the rule does include the words "such as" so you could extend it if you want).

Still a foul on or by an airborne shooter while the ball is dead is still a personal foul (4-19-1) and a PC foul (4-19-6).

So, enforce the violation and the foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's the rule citation for the "zombie" ball between the goaltend and the player control foul?

None. And it's not needed. You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. (I'm shocked! Shocked! to find out that this is true!)

The goaltending made the ball dead. You can still have a PC foul after the ball is dead. Enforce both, in the order they happened. That's the point of the case play.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The goaltending made the ball dead. You can still have a PC foul after the ball is dead. Enforce both, in the order they happened. That's the point of the case play.

Yes but (an official's famous, or infamous, last words) aren't we supposed to ignore contact during a dead ball unless it's intentional or flagrant?

If the caseplay is the only citation (explanation, rationale) for this ruling, I can live with that, but would prefer to also have a rule language citation as well.

[Blindolbat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The only thing which is perplexing is your convoluted and confusing post, which also contains several factual errors of NFHS rules.

Here are the clear facts:
The play involves an airborne shooter. Rule 6-7-9 tells us that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, despite a whistle for a goaltending violation.
Therefore, the ball remains live following the goaltending. It only becomes dead when airborne shooter A1 commits a charging foul prior to returning to the floor as this is a player control foul per 4-19-6 and 6-7-4 states that a PC makes the ball dead.

Now we simply penalize the actions in order of occurrence. Award points for the goaltending, and then award Team B a throw-in with the privilege of running the endline due to the awarded goal.

The principle which controls this situation is that the ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter either returns to the floor or commits a PC foul.

Ok. This is the most clear explanation I've heard or read regarding this. I appreciate everyone chiming in. A very rare situation I would have missed until now

[Raymond]

I already knew it and was wondering what the big deal was.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I already knew it ...

I don't doubt that for a single second, but why keep it a secret?

Wait? Is this Candid Camera? C'mon Raymond. Are we on Candid Camera? Where's the camera? Is it the camera in our laptops?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't doubt that for a single second, but why keep it a secret?



Wait? Is this Candid Camera? C'mon Raymond. Where's the camera?

Because I'm doing other things during the day and not going to go find the exact citation in the rule book. It's pretty common knowledge (or should be) amongst veteran officials that after the ball is dead fouls can still be committed by or against an airborne shooter.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Because I'm doing other things during the day ...

You were noticeably absent from this thread (only one early post). This must be the busy time of the year for you at work. Hopefully you have tomorrow off from work. Happy Thanksgiving.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's pretty common knowledge among veteran officials that after the ball is dead fouls can still be committed by or against an airborne shooter.

Absolutely, but normally I think of the ball simply going in (or not) along with a foul by, or against, the airborne shooter.

The goaltending violation was the shiny object that distracted me.

Nice thread Blindolbat. Thanks.

[Raymond]

How do you have an airborne shooter if there's no try?

Are you just trying to extend this thread because it's come to a conclusion?

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

How do you have an airborne shooter if there's no try?

Are you just trying to extend this thread because it's come to a conclusion?

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Plus, it doesn't matter what B does (absent something arising to a T) since the ball is dead on the foul (it will be a TC foul, not a PC foul) by A.

NFHS made the specific case be goaltending, but it's not restrictive.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... it will be a TC foul, not a PC foul ...

Why not a player control foul?

RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score. In (b), the ball becomes dead and the try ends immediately when the player-control foul on A1 occurs. The action of B2 is ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended. The ball is awarded to Team B for a throw-in from a designated spot out of bounds closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why not a player control foul?

Yes, it could be if it were a try. Maybe it wa s a pass that went through the cylinder and eas touched after a foul be A1 -- this would be a TC foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it could be if it were a try. Maybe it wa s a pass that went through the cylinder and eas touched after a foul be A1 -- this would be a TC foul.

Thanks. Get it. Something outside the purview of the casebook play, a modified situation for additional learning.