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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 07, 2021, 01:29pm
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Mechanics are mostly suggestions anyway. There is not a mechanic to cover every situation and certainly, not all situations can be gone over in detail. I do know this, there is no way a Trail can see a player step on the line with clarity as the lead can who is looking up the line. So even if the mechanic says to have the Trail take these calls, there are situations where that would be nearly impossible other than an errant thrown pass. Otherwise, some plays might be bang, bang and the Trail would be guessing. So the mechanic might not be stated to cover all situations, but if you have been doing this long enough, you probably need to discuss some variations of the coverage, just like you do in other aspects of the mechanics. The PCA is often discussed, but very little about secondary coverage and when certain calls need to be given to the person not covering the primary.

Peace
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 07, 2021, 01:39pm
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Fish Or Cut Bait ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do know this, there is no way a Trail can see a player step on the line with clarity as the lead can who is looking up the line.
Theoretically we can, if the Trail moves from A to B to C. Work the arc, sometimes going into the backcourt to get a good look. I know, I do it in every game.

My point was no "options". Let IAABO go back to the old NHFS mechanic if it's deemed better (which it may be).

Or if there are options, put the options in the mechanics manual so the "new" guys can learn the old NFHS way if needed. When a veteran referee says in a pregame, "We'll use the old NFHS system for out of bounds on the sideline", it would be nice if the young'un knew what the old NFHS system was. Right now, the old NFHS system isn't in the mechanics manual, and it's not being taught in training classes. Remember this NFHS to IAABO "change" was made decades ago, before some of our younger officials were even born.

IAABO should pick one system and stick to it, for all games, and all partners, veterans and young'uns.

I like the old NFHS system, of course I do, because I'm an old veteran and moved up the ladder using this old NFHS system. Old dog. New tricks. Don't fix it if it ain't broken.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 07, 2021 at 02:05pm.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 07, 2021, 01:45pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Honestly, I could use either system, I would just discuss the plays that would be the biggest challenge and adjust to those challenges. Otherwise, I doubt seriously anyone is making that big of a deal of you getting the play right.

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 07, 2021, 02:02pm
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Flexible JRutledge ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Honestly, I could use either system ...
I don't doubt it. Of course you can, you already change systems from night to night as you change from college games to high school games, and maybe even from Illinois high school games to Indiana high school games. Flexibility is a valuable asset. It's part of what makes you a great basketball official.

But the high school only guys that I work with, especially the young'uns I often work with in my middle school games, lack that flexibility (and greatness). If they have problems knowing if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated, how are they going to smoothly and successfully switch from IAABO mechanics to NFHS mechanics from one game to the next, and one partner to the next, especially in bang bang out of bounds plays, that should be reflexive, and almost automatic.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 07, 2021 at 05:23pm.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 07, 2021, 03:16pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I don't doubt it. Of course you can, you already change systems from night to night as you change from college games to high school games, and maybe even from Illinois high school games to Indiana high school games. Flexibility is a valuable asset. It's part of what makes you a great basketball official.

But the high school only guys that I work with, especially the young'uns I often work with in my middle school games, lack that flexibility (and greatness). If they have problems knowing if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated, how are they going to smoothly and successfully switch from IAABO mechanics to NFHS mechanics from one game to the next, and one partner to the next, especially in bang bang out of bonds plays, that should be reflexive, and almost automatic.
Officiating is officiating. All those levels and organizations you mentioned do practically the same things across the board. Hardly any variations or differences in philosophies. The main difference is the partners you work with and what they may or may not bring to the table in experience or knowledge.

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 07, 2021, 05:21pm
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Evaluation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Officiating is officiating ... The main difference is the partners you work with and what they may or may not bring to the table in experience or knowledge.
Also keep in mind that the way one moves up the ladder (or down the ladder) here in my little corner of 100% IAABO Connecticut is 100% based on evaluations. Evaluations by partners, and more importantly, evaluations by a select committee.

One of the five areas evaluated is mechanics, defined as utilizing proper mechanics, and up-to-date techniques and procedures as detailed in the IAABO Officials Manual, and there is no, "lead takes the entire sideline", anywhere in the IAABO Officials Manual.

If one "steps out of line", one takes a chance on getting poor evaluations and on being exiled to subvarsity hell.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 07, 2021 at 06:33pm.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2021, 02:03pm
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IAABO Update ...

IAABO just posted an update on this play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...vil1muCg%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This play is correctly ruled.

This is an incredibly challenging play for a Crew of 2. As the ball is passed from the midcourt area toward the sideline, the defensive player (in the white jersey) does deflect the ball. It appears it may have also touched the player in the black jersey before going out of bounds, which is what was ruled on the play.

Did this crew handle this play as outlined in the manual? The answer is No. This crew, for a moment, seems unsure who should make the ruling. They make eye contact, and the Trail signals direction while the Lead sounds the whistle and stops the clock. The Lead then mirrors the Trails direction signal—excellent teamwork on this difficult play.

By the IAABO manual, this is a ruling that the Trail official should cover. The Trail should sound the whistle and signal direction. (2020-21 IAABO manual p. 60) With the increase in motion offense and pressure defense, it is necessary for the Trail to cover the farther sideline more frequently. Farther sideline coverage by the Trail above the free-throw line extended reduces ball watching and provides better coverage while adhering to the PCA concept.

Since this play is in the Trail's PCA, the Trail is responsible for the ruling. This play coverage should be a topic in every pregame conference when working in a Crew of 2. If the Crew decides to deviate from the manual to have the Lead take the sideline and make this ruling, they should agree before the game. This will avoid the brief hesitation as seen by this crew.

How could the coverage of this play be improved? Starting with the Trail positioning, he should be a step or two more onto the court as the ball handler moves into the frontcourt. When the ball is passed to the sideline, the Trail could position adjust by "working the arc" toward the opposite sideline. This step or two may have provided a little better angle on the play, as his view from his original position may have been obstructed by the players in the midcourt area.

As the ball advances into the frontcourt, the Lead is in the closed-down "B" position. Lead officials should select their initial position based on the ball location as the ball crosses the division line. With the ball on the right side of the center circle, the Lead should "mirror the ball" and be a couple of steps wider toward the sideline. When the ball is passed to the sideline, the Lead should position adjust toward the sideline toward the "A" position. We hope this play helps your understanding of this important concept.
Here's the update:

The IAABO office occasionally gets feedback on the plays we post in Refquest, asking us to expand on the feedback we provided.

In regards to the out-of-bounds play on Refquest, when doing a game with a two-person crew, the Trail in this play should have moved into the backcourt some and more towards the sideline where the play was happening. This would have given the official a better look to make the ruling on this play.

Also, the lead official should be watching the players in his PCA and not looking at the sideline above the foul line extended, which is out of his PCA.

I watched this play several times in slow motion, and the player in black did not touch the ball; it went right thru his hands. When making a call on plays like this, you must be sure who touched the ball last when it goes out of bounds.

If you are not 100% sure, blow your whistle, put your arm straight up to stop the clock, check with your partner to see if he or she has the correct call; if not, go to the possession arrow.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2021, 02:25pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Also keep in mind that the way one moves up the ladder (or down the ladder) here in my little corner of 100% IAABO Connecticut is 100% based on evaluations. Evaluations by partners, and more importantly, evaluations by a select committee.

One of the five areas evaluated is mechanics, defined as utilizing proper mechanics, and up-to-date techniques and procedures as detailed in the IAABO Officials Manual, and there is no, "lead takes the entire sideline", anywhere in the IAABO Officials Manual.

If one "steps out of line", one takes a chance on getting poor evaluations and on being exiled to subvarsity hell.
And this is different than what? We are evaluated by many things as well. Many more things I can mention here without confusing everyone. Following rules and mechanics are also asked of us as well. And following procedures that have been laid out helps you as well. Nothing special here. But is a premium that you can referee and not follow some book procedures and only those book procedures. There are officials that are used to working certain levels of ball that cannot handle higher levels of talent. They have tried to get away from just putting anyone on games they are not used to working and getting diversity in other areas as well. It is deeper than a single evaluation here.

We were 3 person only for all playoff games, so there is nothing that has the lead having any sideline coverage. You mostly see 2 person at the lower level. The lead only has the endline.

Peace
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2021, 02:31pm
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One Heluva Good Official ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Following rules and mechanics are also asked of us as well. And following procedures that have been laid out helps you as well. But is a premium that you can referee and not follow some book procedures and only those book procedures.
Imagine if an official had it all, book smarts, and court smarts?

All kinds of smarts.

That would be one heluva good official.

They do exist. Black swans.

We have a few, not a lot, but a few.

Agree with JRutledge. First and foremost, one has to be able to officiate the game.

Other stuff is the icing on the cake, the cherry on top of the hot fudge sundae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... mostly see 2 person at the lower level.
I'm in Connecticut. We see two person at all levels, almost all the time, right up to (but not including) the state quarterfinals.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Sep 13, 2021 at 03:14pm.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2021, 03:26pm
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Camel's Nose ...

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm in Connecticut. We see two person at all levels, almost all the time, right up to (but not including) the state quarterfinals.
State quarterfinals up are all three person.

We have six local boards here in Connecticut. Only one, in the richest part of the state, has convinced coaches, athletic directors, and principals that three person is needed for many, but not all games.

The other five local boards will occasionally use three person for big rivalry matchups. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, coaches, athletic directors, and principals can't make up their minds if they want three person, or two person for conference (league) post season finals, they change their mind from year to year, possibly trying to keep the camel from putting his nose under the tent.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:21am
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Black Swans ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
That would be one heluva good official. First and foremost, one has to be able to officiate the game. Other stuff is the icing on the cake, the cherry on top of the hot fudge sundae.
Reaction time, intestinal fortitude, confidence, poise, consistency, judgment, cooperation (team work), proper application of the rules, rules knowledge, mechanics (and signals), appearance and conditioning, game management, et al.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 11:02am.
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