Fun With Contact …

[JRutledge]

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Great video. Thanks JRutledge.

My high school opinion, using the old infamous POE as only a guideline, intent and purpose of the POE, and my forty years of experience, Blue #23 did push White #33 (as called), but it only came after White #33 fouled Blue #23 (not called). Official left the site of the foul too quickly, without even signaling who fouled (I had to wait to see who got the throwin before I discovering who fouled). Good thing his partners kept tensions from escalating (there was a slightly tense dead ball push by Blue #23).

Now the hard part. Again high school, and again no automatics, only guidelines, guidelines that make me pause and think for a second about upgrades. So what am I thinking during that pause? Not the "classic" swinging elbow strike to the head. More of a hold of the back/shoulder/head area. But it was still contact that ended up including the head. Game's getting rougher than I'd like it to be? Send a message, it's excessive contact, going with intentional foul. Game going smoothly? I'm going common foul (maybe talking to combatants).

Now, again high school, but it's 2012-13? Got some automatics. No swinging excessively (can't be flagrant), but some movement. Contact with head, though not "classic". Let's discourage any contact to the head in this age of concussions, have to go intentional (not flagrant), it's excessive contact, no other choice offered by the NFHS POE. Handcuffed by the POE.

If the video and the play commentary is based on NCAA rules and interpretations, I have no comment, to do so would only make a fool of me. NCAA is not my bag (apologies to James Brown).

How did I do? Do I get to keep my varsity high school certification? Or I'm a relegated to sixth grade girls recreation leagues?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the video and the play commentary is based on NCAA rules and interpretations, I have no comment, to do so would only make a fool of me. NCAA is not my bag (apologies to James Brown).

This is a high school game and part of the DVD series two years after the POE you keep referencing. I did not take out any commentary but I did cut the video down. This was clearly about what we do at the NF level and for the record, NCAA has other language for these kinds of plays as to what is considered a foul. NCAA would have wanted a foul by white before it even got to the other side of the lane for an illegal ward-off.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is a high school game and part of the DVD series two years after the POE you keep referencing.

Wow. Big kids. I just assumed that Howard and Samford (thought they were both HBC's) were colleges playing a neutral site game in Delaware.

Years ago we used to have HBC's from the South (Virginia State University and Hampton University) come up here to Connecticut to play neutral site games, at least once a year. Big crowds. Great basketball. Not sure which NCAA division.

So how bad were my calls in this high school game?

Too bad the video didn't show a classic swinging elbow (excessive, or not) striking the head contact. I'd like to see that in a high school, from eight years ago, or from a more recent game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wow. Big kids. I just assumed that Howard and Sanford (thought they were both HBC's) were colleges playing a neutral site game in Delaware.

Years ago we used to have HBC's from the Southeast come up here to Connecticut to play neutral site games, at least once a year. Big crowds. Great basketball. Not sure which NCAA division.

So how bad were my calls in this high school game?

Too bad the video didn't show a classic swinging elbow (excessive, or not) striking the head contact. I'd like to see that in a high school, from eight years ago, or from a more recent game.

What are HBC's?

And you said you knew what I was referring to and you think this is a college game? Does IAABO put out content specifically for college?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What are HBC's?

Historically black colleges. I may be behind the times, I believe that they're now called historically black colleges and universities. I'm sure that Howard is, not sure about Samford.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Does IAABO put out content specifically for college?

Yes, absolutely, always with separate NCAAM and NCAAW content. We always get it in our monthly Inside the Lines bulletins, our bi-monthly Sportorials magazines, our International Fall Seminars, and also in our recent COVID online Zoom presentations.

From our very recent IAABO Executive Director's Annual Report: IAABO continues to create a separate handbook for Canada that contains FIBA rules and interpretations, including a handbook … and other instructional materials for the FIBA rule changes. Periodic quizzes have been prepared for our international members and have been well received. During the course of this year, we were able to complete the terms of our agreement with CBOA to establish the Men’s Collegiate Board 800. Concurrent with that agreement, we were also successful in establishing Board 801 for the Women’s Collegiate Basketball Officials Organization (WCBOO). The addition of these two boards now allows IAABO to service members interested in NFHS, Men’s Collegiate, Women’s Collegiate and the International games. Efforts are being made to include all videos, quizzes and training materials for all four sets of rules.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... IAABO is now branching out (outside of the NFHS) to include FIBA (Canada), NCAA men's basketball, and NCAA women's basketball, a diversification strategy that I fear will dilute the product of what IAABO has always done best, training high school basketball officials.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you said you knew what I was referring to and you think this is a college game?

Since well before the technological expansion of high school video, IAABO has often used video of college games to demonstrate, or explain, principles of high school rules, interpretations, and/or mechanics, which has continued (though somewhat decreased) up to and including recent times. Often, but not always, there will be some type of introductory statement, almost always live by the presenter, anybody from a local interpreter, up to to international seminar presenter, that what we're viewing on the video is a college game, but that we can still learn about high school rules, interpretations, and/or mechanics, from the video, and video play commentary.

It is for this reason, as well as the school names on the jerseys, as well as the degree of physical maturity and size of the players, that I believed that this was a video of a college game, despite also knowing that some high school games (state tournament late round games) are played on college basketball sites (in this case the University of Delaware).

JRutledge: Are you 100% positive that this is a high school game?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Historically black colleges. I may be behind the times, I believe that they're now called historically black colleges and universities. I'm sure that Howard is, not sure about Samford.

They are referred to as HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities). I have several family members that attended them, my mom was one of them who attended FAMU.

Howard is a University that is an HBCU. Samford is a Christian school, which was ironically first-named Howard College.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes, absolutely, always with separate NCAAM and NCAAW content. We always get it in our monthly Inside the Lines bulletins, our bi-monthly Sportorials magazines, our International Fall Seminars, and also in our recent COVID online Zoom presentations.

Well, they don't as it is related to the NASO product line. Not sure why or if they care, but this was part of their "You Make the Ruling" Videos and all that content is high school-related. The NCAA puts out their own content through NASO or through Arbiter mainly when it comes to videos.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JRutledge: Are you 100% positive that this is a high school game?

Honestly, it does not matter because IAABO never discusses NCAA Rules or CCA Mechanics. So it is not a high school game, they are selling it as one for the purposes of these plays. Again, this was a high school video series, if it is not a high school game they certainly are not talking all throughout the video as such. Again this is your organization, you should know what they are using better than me. So if this happened a couple of years after the POE which you love to tell me has to be followed, then they certainly did not mention this. Also, college has provisions for elbow contact but again they have when it should apply and when it should not apply to a Flagrant Foul (different terminology). The voice-over never addressed this at all.

On another note, the players look nothing like college players to me in either size or look. I do not see a kid taller than 6'2 or 6'3 on the floor, including the players in the post where the foul was called. Neither does the calling official look like a college official in this play, he looks like a high school official, especially with the way he called the foul. But that is just my take.

Peace