The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 09:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Illegal number--NCAA

Hi guys, I do not have an NCAA rulebook and cannot find the answer after an online search.

Scenario: During an NCAA game, it is noticed during game action that A2 is wearing jersey #7. It was not caught by the referee or official scorer before the game began when reviewing the scorebook. What is the penalty?

If the issue is noticed before the game starts, but the team refuses to change the jersey number for whatever reason, is the player still allowed to play, with the same penalty to begin the game?

Class A or Class B technical? POI? How many free throws? Team foul or personal foul? Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 09:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggerMN View Post
Hi guys, I do not have an NCAA rulebook and cannot find the answer after an online search.

Scenario: During an NCAA game, it is noticed during game action that A2 is wearing jersey #7. It was not caught by the referee or official scorer before the game began when reviewing the scorebook. What is the penalty?

If the issue is noticed before the game starts, but the team refuses to change the jersey number for whatever reason, is the player still allowed to play, with the same penalty to begin the game?

Class A or Class B technical? POI? How many free throws? Team foul or personal foul? Thanks.
This is under Admin Ts in the NCAAM rules book:

Art. 3. A team or team member shall not wear:
a. A number that is identical to that of a teammate.
b. An illegal number. (See Rule 1-22.7.b.2)
c. An illegal game jersey. This only includes the failure of a team to wear
contrasting uniform colors. Other illegalities shall be enforced by the
institution's conference. (See Rule 1-22)
PENALTY—One free throw awarded to the offended team. The ball shall be
put back in play at the point of interruption using the procedures in Rule
7-3.2.
(Art. 3.a) Penalized when discovered after the 10-minute time limit in Rule
3-4.1.
(Art. 3.b, 3.c) Penalized when discovered before the ball becomes live when
the individual is a player.
(Art. 3.c) When more than one team member violates, only one
administrative technical foul shall be assessed.

(and you can always get the rules books and case books as a free pdf at https://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4...retations.aspx
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 10:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,862
It’s going to be either an admin T for participating with an illegal number or an admin T for changing a number in the book. Like FED, a player can participate while wearing an illegal number at the expense of a technical foul when he enters the game.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 11:04am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,382
For The Good Of The Cause ...

For those, like me, that officiate high school basketball:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 11:14am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,382
Pistol Pete Maravich #7 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggerMN View Post
Illegal number--NCAA
While I've certainly seen illegal numbers in recreation level games, and once in a middle school game, I can't imagine a bona fide company selling uniforms with illegal numbers to a college program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggerMN View Post
jersey #7.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Feb 18, 2021 at 02:59pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 11:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 553
What makes a jersey # "illegal" as per any given rule book dictate? Is it due to the perceived difficulty that refs would have when signaling the jersey number with hands at the score table? [For example, to signal, a foul on number 78 might require the ref to be polydactyl], or, is it cosmetic appearance of an odd number like 19 or 37. Exactly why are some jersey numbers classified as "illegal" and others not so?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 18, 2021, 11:37am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,382
Bill Russell #6 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
What makes a jersey # "illegal"? Is it due to the perceived difficulty that refs would have when signaling the jersey number with hands at the score table?
Keep in mind that in the not too distant past there was only one hand reporting in high school games.

NBA jerseys have always featured numbers. As in baseball, anything from 0 to 99 goes.

Basketball leagues at all levels in the U.S. traditionally use single and double digits between 0 and 5 (i.e. 0, 00, 1–5, 10–15, 20–25, 30–35, 40–45 and 50–55). The NCAA and most amateur competitions mandate that only these numbers be used because it eases nonverbal communication between referees, who use fingers to denote a player’s number, and the official scorer. In college basketball, single-digit player numbers are officially recorded with a leading zero.

The NBA has always allowed other numbers between 0 and 99, but the use of digits 6 through 9 is less common than 0 through 5 since players tend to keep their numbers from college.


__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Feb 18, 2021 at 07:32pm.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 10:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
What makes a jersey # "illegal" as per any given rule book dictate? Is it due to the perceived difficulty that refs would have when signaling the jersey number with hands at the score table? [For example, to signal, a foul on number 78 might require the ref to be polydactyl], or, is it cosmetic appearance of an odd number like 19 or 37. Exactly why are some jersey numbers classified as "illegal" and others not so?
FIBA solves this by having officials use both hands to signal digits greater than 5, and having them signal first the tens digit (with the back(s) of the hand(s) facing the scorer), and then the ones digit (with the hand(s) facing the scorer in the usual way). If I have a game with non-standard numbers, I use the FIBA approach to signal those numbers.

Lacrosse solves this by signalling numbers from 6-9 sideways (6 is 1 finger pointing sideways, 7 is 2 fingers pointing sideways, all the way up to 9 (4 fingers pointing sideways)) and having one hand represent one digit

Volleyball is similar to FIBA in that officials show first one digit then the next, except volleyball officials do not turn their hand when going from the tens digit to the ones.

If NFHS or NCAA ever allows numbers greater than 5 on uniforms, then choosing one of these approaches as a standard method would help officials in correctly signalling fouls on players wearing those numbers. It might require additions to the signal chart and mechanics manual, but it would be worthwhile to reduce the amount of bellyaching over uniform issues that goes on in NFHS games.

NOTE: Numbers under 10 are signalled with the hand(s) facing forwards. 10 is signalled with two open hands, and numbers from 11 to 15 are signalled with a fist on the right hand, and 1 to 5 fingers showing on the left hand.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:21pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,382
Excedrin Headache #99 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
FIBA solves this by having officials use both hands to signal digits greater than 5, and having them signal first the tens digit (with the back(s) of the hand(s) facing the scorer), and then the ones digit (with the hand(s) facing the scorer in the usual way). If I have a game with non-standard numbers, I use the FIBA approach to signal those numbers. Lacrosse solves this by signalling numbers from 6-9 sideways (6 is 1 finger pointing sideways, 7 is 2 fingers pointing sideways, all the way up to 9 (4 fingers pointing sideways)) and having one hand represent one digit. Volleyball is similar to FIBA in that officials show first one digit then the next, except volleyball officials do not turn their hand when going from the tens digit to the ones ... Numbers under 10 are signaled with the hand(s) facing forwards. 10 is signaled with two open hands, and numbers from 11 to 15 are signaled with a fist on the right hand, and 1 to 5 fingers showing on the left hand.
My head hurts.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:35pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If NFHS or NCAA ever allows numbers greater than 5 on uniforms, then choosing one of these approaches as a standard method would help officials in correctly signalling fouls on players wearing those numbers. It might require additions to the signal chart and mechanics manual, but it would be worthwhile to reduce the amount of bellyaching over uniform issues that goes on in NFHS games.

NOTE: Numbers under 10 are signalled with the hand(s) facing forwards. 10 is signalled with two open hands, and numbers from 11 to 15 are signalled with a fist on the right hand, and 1 to 5 fingers showing on the left hand.
I do not think I have ever in a varsity game ever had an issue with an illegal number. And if I did it is so rare that this is such a non-issue that no one is having to deal with this on any meaningful level. High schools also do not retire numbers or decide not to use numbers very often. Otherwise not much of an issue. Again the NF likes to keep things simple and basic. And the NCAA has the same rules for likely the same reason. The pros have smaller staffs and fewer officials to train.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:59pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,382
Bona Fide Companies ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think I have ever in a varsity game ever had an issue with an illegal number.
Same here. And only twice in interscholastic middle school games (warned by my strict "Fashion Police" Catholic middle school assigner to watch for it and to penalize).

Bona fide companies aren't going to sell illegal jerseys to interscholastic or intercollegiate programs. It's bad business.

Now on the other hand, recreation/travel teams, with jerseys silk screened by a local business (that some of us work) ...
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 23, 2021 at 01:15pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 01:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
but it would be worthwhile to reduce the amount of bellyaching over uniform issues that goes on in NFHS games.
There's almost zero bellyaching on the numbers. And even with the current numbers there's confusion at the table and poorly trained refs and POEs needed.

You can't take the NBA with a small number of professional refs and professional tables at 30 (or whatever) venues and try to apply it to the thousands of venues / different levels of NFHS just to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 11:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 832
My post was to illustrate that there is a way to signal numbers greater than 5, whether by using one hand, or by using 2 hands and seuentially displaying the tens and ones digits. This means that there isn't a good reason for numbers above 5 to remain illegal in NFHS and NCAA play.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 10:36am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
My post was to illustrate that there is a way to signal numbers greater than 5, whether by using one hand, or by using 2 hands and seuentially displaying the tens and ones digits. This means that there isn't a good reason for numbers above 5 to remain illegal in NFHS and NCAA play.
The good reason is no one cares. Again not pro sports that often retires or stops using numbers. We know it can be done, but not anyone clamoring to make that change. Change for the sake of change is not always necessary.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 11:22am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,382
Leave Well Enough Alone ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... there isn't a good reason for numbers above 5 to remain illegal in NFHS ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We know it can be done, but not anyone clamoring to make that change. Change for the sake of change is not always necessary.
Agree.

I believe ilyazhito to be an advocate for all rule sets to be the same.

Vive la différence (pardon my French).

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Feb 24, 2021 at 11:40am.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Illegal number WDEvol Basketball 33 Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:02pm
Illegal number ??? BillyMac Basketball 6 Fri Nov 14, 2008 07:51pm
Illegal number Question BigGref Football 9 Fri Sep 02, 2005 02:50pm
Number leqal or illegal 5 sport ref Basketball 4 Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:36am
Illegal number? JugglingReferee Basketball 4 Mon Jan 14, 2002 08:38pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1