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Old Mon Feb 15, 2021, 05:06pm
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Double Foul Questions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I’ve got a DF (with one element being intentional*) followed by the unsporting T on black.*In NFHS, there are still no FTs when part of a DF is of higher severity. NCAA (I think both M and W) call for the penalty assessment to proceed as if the lesser foul had not occurred (even though it is still charged). But no such rule in NFHS; it’s just POI.
These are questions, not answers (because I don't have any answers).

A double personal foul means no free throws and point of interruption. But what if one foul had been ruled an intentional foul? Don't we always have to shoot free throws on intentional fouls? Wouldn't this be better described as a false double foul (fouls by both teams and one of the attributes of a double foul (same penalties) is absent)?

What if two opponents foul each other at exactly the same time and only one of the two fouls is an intentional foul? How would we penalize two opponents fouling each other at exactly the same time with only one of the two fouls (same exact time) ruled as an intentional foul: free throws, or no free throws; ball to offended (intentionally fouled) team, or point of interruption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
In NFHS, there are still no FTs when part of a DF is of higher severity ... in NFHS; it’s just POI.
Hey crosscountry55, not disagreeing, sounds reasonable, and I don't have an opposing citation, but is there a citation for this (your post immediately above) if two opponents foul each other at exactly the same time and only one of the two fouls is an intentional foul)?

Now a double foul, exactly the same time, both are intentional, must (maybe) be a double foul (no free throws, point of interruption), otherwise in what order would one shoot free throws? Maybe this is the rationale to use to decide that even if only one of the two fouls is intentional, it's still a double foul (no free throws, point of interruption).

Of course it's all academic. In the video, the whistled live ball handcheck foul clearly preceded (not at the same time) the dead ball intentional elbow foul.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 16, 2021 at 07:55am.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2021, 05:36pm
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Fun With Multiple Illegal Contacts …

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Hey crosscountry55, not disagreeing, sounds reasonable, and I don't have an opposing citation, but is there a citation for this (your post immediately above) if two opponents foul each other at exactly the same time and only one of the two fouls is an intentional foul)?
Implied from Rule 10 PENALTIES:

Rule 10 Penalties Summary

1. No free throws:

c. For double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).

NOTE: If one or both fouls of a double foul are flagrant, no free throws are awarded. Any player who commits a flagrant foul is disqualified.


We had a discussion on this forum a few years ago and the consensus was that intentional fouls were also understood to be included in this, though the language could be more clear.


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Old Tue Feb 16, 2021, 07:55am
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Implication ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Implied from Rule 10 PENALTIES
Great citation crosscountry55. Thanks.

4-19-8-A: A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized. Double fouls: A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

Rule 10 Penalties Summary 1-C: No free throws: For double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).
NOTE: If one or both fouls of a double foul are flagrant, no free throws are awarded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
We had a discussion on this forum a few years ago and the consensus was that intentional fouls were also understood to be included in this, though the language could be more clear.
Agree that it could be more clear, but the implication works for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
How would we penalize two opponents fouling each other at exactly the same time with only one of the two fouls (same exact time) ruled as an intentional foul: free throws, or no free throws; ball to offended (intentionally fouled) team, or point of interruption?
I believe that we have the answer: Double foul (not a false double). No free throws (not two free throws, even though we have an intentional foul). Point of interruption (not to offended intentionally fouled team, even though we have an intentional foul).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... a double foul, exactly the same time, both are intentional, must ... be a double foul (no free throws, point of interruption), otherwise in what order would one shoot free throws? Maybe this is the rationale to use to decide that even if only one of the two fouls is intentional, it's still a double foul (no free throws, point of interruption).
I was headed down the right path, got it into the red zone, but couldn't come up with the coup de grâce across the finish line.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 16, 2021 at 01:37pm.
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