Disconcerting ?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

With the addition of the bench conduct warning, I've used that twice to address instances of players on the bench trying to distract the shooter. Each time, the coach put an end to it real quick.

No distraction delayed violation, so no do-over?

No technical foul charged, so no free throws?

The use of a bench conduct warning gives the bench personnel one "free shot" at a last split second startling distraction of the shooter.

Could have implications down the line in a one point loss (especially if the last split second startling distraction happened at the first try of a one and one, even more so in the last seconds of a very close game).

While I'm not a fan of a technical foul at the first instance of a last split second startling distraction, I'd rather see the technical foul than just a bench conduct warning (that doesn't really have a penalty with "teeth").

It's even covered in 4-48, the bench conduct warning rule:

A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul … unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed.

The rulebook tells us that a free throw shooter must get an unhindered try and must not be distracted by an opponent.

If the shooter is not given an unhindered try because he was distracted by a bench personnel opponent, he should either get a do-over (delayed violation), or his team should get two free throws (bench conduct technical foul).

In my mind, one penalty is better than the other (the nuclear option).

If the shooter is obviously distracted (startled) by the bench, there has to be some "real" remedy (penalty).

That's the purpose and intent of rules telling us that the free throw shooter must get an unhindered try and must not be distracted by an opponent.

While I agree that the rulebook does a poor job of defining "opponent", purpose and intent should cover the situation.

I vote for the delayed violation.

Now could somebody please help me down from my soapbox, I'm getting dizzy up here.

[JRutledge]

Billy,

You always act like you are connected to someone that has rules, why don't you get their clarification (and I am not talking about some IAABO mess) about what should be done or why they do not have an interpretation for this situation you describe.

So if we are all incorrect and you are correct, show us something more than it applies to anyone on the bench. No violation applies to anyone on the bench in our game. Why would this be the exception without some case play or interpretation to make it clear how to proceed?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... you are connected to someone that has rules, why don't you get their clarification (and I am not talking about some IAABO mess) ...

My connections are strictly IAABO related. Regarding this situation, I was actually considering contacting the "Gang Of Four", our IAABO International committee of interpreters, but decided that it would only apply to a small number of Forum members who are associated with IAABO so I didn't bother. My interpretation follows an ancient ruling from our state interpreter but again, that's also IAABO related.

While I 100% understand that IAABO and the NFHS are not the same, not even in the same league, regarding rule interpretations, "mess" is a strong word. We did have an IAABO International interpreter step out of his lane and jump the gun on a controversial rule interpretation regarding boxing out the free throw shooter a few years ago (turned out he was correct, he was just a year early), but he has retired. Calling a very professional organization like IAABO a "mess", while true in the sense that it doesn't mean a hill of beans to many, many basketball officials, is really an overstatement. The NFHS and IAABO usually work very closely and professionally together (except for the box out controversy a few years ago).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... show us something more than it applies to anyone on the bench. No violation applies to anyone on the bench in our game. Why would this be the exception without some case play or interpretation to make it clear how to proceed?

The rulebook tells us that a free throw shooter must get an unhindered try and must not be distracted by an opponent.

I've always said that it's difficult to defend my interpretation due to a lack of a NFHS definition for "opponent". However, I can defend it with purpose and intent, and (lacking a NFHS definition) I have a dictionary definition of opponent: one that takes an opposite position (as in a debate, contest, or conflict).

Likewise, without a NFHS definition saying an opponent must be a player on the court, it's also difficult for JRutledge to defend his position of not calling a delayed violation on such a situation.

I do agree with JRutledge that unsporting bench technical fouls are rule based and are appropriate, but only if the first last split second startling distraction and air ball is immediately followed by the charging of an unsporting technical foul and two free throws and the ball.

Here's where I disagree with both JRutledge and Stat-Man: To allow such unsporting activity with just a, "Knock it off. Don't do it again" (bench warning), is not an appropriate penalty for a missed air ball free throw due to last split second startling distraction unsporting activity that is not allowed by a common sense and purpose and intent reading of the rules. Certainly not on the front end of a one and one in the last seconds of a very close game.

There is no rule, casebook interpretation, annual interpretation, or point of emphasis that states that one can't call a distracting delayed violation on bench personnel.

Of course, if there was a written list of everything that an official can't do, it would be longer than War and Peace.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The rulebook tells us that a free throw shooter must get an unhindered try and must not be distracted by an opponent.

I've always said that it's difficult to defend my interpretation due to a lack of definition for "opponent". However, I can defend it with purpose and intent.

Likewise, without a definition, it's also difficult for JRutledge to defend his position of not calling a delayed violation on such a situation.

I do agree with JRutledge that unsporting technical fouls are rule based and may be appropriate, but only if the first last split second startling distraction and air ball is immediately followed by the charging of an unsporting technical foul and two free throws and the ball.

Here's where I disagree with both JRutledge and Stat-Man: To allow such unsporting activity with just a, "Knock it off. Don't do it again", is not an appropriate penalty for a missed free throw due to such unsporting activity. Certainly not in the last seconds of a very close game.

I am of the opinion that the term opponent includes all members of the opposing team. That includes the head coach, any assistant coaches, all rostered substitutes, team managers, and trainers. Basically, anyone who is sitting in the team bench area is part of that team and the team will be penalized if such an individual infringes the rules.

I would call a violation for bench personnel yelling at an opposing FT shooter.
I can also understand a technical foul when such behavior is repeated or grossly unsportsmanlike.

Upon what basis do I believe that? The manner in which the numerous and frequent appearances of the terms opponent and opposing are used throughout the NFHS rules book.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Upon what basis do I believe that? The manner in which the numerous and frequent appearances of the terms opponent and opposing are used throughout the NFHS rules book.

While I agree with your conclusion (that disconcertion applies to bench personnel), I don't agree with your reasoning.

Using a quick search on a PDF copy of the 2017-18 rule book I have, there are 35 uses of the word opponent or opponents. Many of the references are in regard to awarding a throwin to the opponents after an infraction or free throws for technical foul, where the team is the beneficiary of the award, but it is always a player that must execute the awarded throw-in or free throw. The next most frequent use is as a synonym for opposing players where it refers to live ball situations...contact fouls, free-throw space requirements, jump/held ball. It is rare that the word opponent, in the rule book, refers to anyone on the bench.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While I agree with your conclusion (that disconcertion applies to bench personnel) ... 2017-18 rule book ... there are 35 uses of the word opponent or opponents. Many of the references are in regard to awarding a throwin to the opponents after an infraction or free throws for technical foul, where the team is the beneficiary of the award, but it is always a player that must execute the awarded throw-in or free throw. The next most frequent use is as a synonym for opposing players where it refers to live ball situations...contact fouls, free-throw space requirements, jump/held ball. It is rare that the word opponent, in the rule book, refers to anyone on the bench.

Agree. I did the same search as Camron Rust and found the same references to players (as Camron Rust stated so eloquently).

Good citations for JRutledge and Stat-Man to defend their positions.

However, there is still no citation (rule, casebook interpretation, annual interpretation, or point of emphasis) that states that an opponent can't be bench personnel and that one can't call a distracting delayed violation on bench personnel.

The rulebook tells us that a free throw shooter must get an unhindered try and must not be distracted by an opponent.

Without a rule definition, casebook interpretation, annual interpretation, or point of emphasis that states otherwise; common sense, purpose and intent, fair play, and a Funk and Wagnalls dictionary tells me that one can call a distracting delayed violation on bench personnel.

The guys on the bench did something obviously unsporting. They should be made to pay with a delayed violation do-over, or a technical foul (two free throws by the team's best free throw shooter, and the ball.

A, "Knock it off. Don't do it again"(bench warning), just doesn't cut the mustard, certainly not for an obvious pre-planned last split second startling obvious distraction by the opposing bench followed by an air ball on the front end of a one and one in the last seconds of a very close game.

I'm convinced that we can, by rule, penalize with a bench unsporting technical foul.

I'm convinced that we can charge a bench warning in some cases when the bench starts distracting a little early and the officials can sound the whistle to stop the free throw.

I'm not convinced that we can't call a delayed violation if officials can't stop the free throw in the above situation.

Rule 4 defines everything else short of the kitchen sink. I wonder why they didn't define opponent?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... common sense, purpose and intent, fair play, and a Funk and Wagnalls dictionary tells me that one can call a distracting delayed violation on bench personnel.

Just found this: ... to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... PDF copy of the 2017-18 rule book ...

I was using this same NFHS 2017-18 Rulebook Word Document to do searches and copy citations for a few years until I recently came across a NFHS 2019-20 Rulebook Word Document.

If anybody wants it, send me a private message with your "real" email address and I'll send it to you.

Per chance, anybody got a NFHS 2020-21 Rulebook Word Document or PDF?

I'm dealing with a NFHS 2016-17 Casebook Word Document to do searches and copy citations.

Anybody got a newer version of the casebook (PDF or Word)?

[JRutledge]

Again this is not hard and if the rules committee wants everyone on the bench to be apart of a violation, then why not put that in your rules and interpretations. And yes it is "mess" when we hear one thing from IAABO and people act as it applies to everyone. It does not and honestly, I do not care what IAABO does because there is no such stronghold where I live. If the NF puts something out there, that is another thing as they are what most of us can reference.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... it is "mess" when we hear one thing from IAABO and people act as it applies to everyone. It does not ...

Of course it doesn't.

Not me. I don't act like that. When there has (rarely) been some type of rule interpretation difference between IAABO and the NFHS (i.e., boxing out free throw shooter), I have always identified the interpretation as an only IAABO interpretation that only works with IAABO officials.

When I bring up questions and/or answers from the IAABO Refresher Exam (or any other IAABO source), I clearly identify the exam (or any other IAABO source) as an IAABO Refresher Exam and the questions and/or answers as IAABO questions and/or answers.

And I honestly do not recall any other Forum IAABO members acting in this holier-than-thou manner either.

Same thing for IAABO mechanics. I clearly identify them as IAABO only mechanics, and often title my posts "For IAABO Eyes Only". Some Forum members don't heed my warning. Curiosity killed the cat.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if the rules committee wants everyone on the bench to be apart of a violation, then why not put that in your rules and interpretations ...

Agree 100%.

In a perfect world, looking through rose colored glasses, the NFHS would always be perfect and would never do anything stupid (backcourt team control on throwin exception; points of emphasis never making it into the rulebook or casebook (swinging elbows contact); changing jump ball to alternating possession forgetting about many jump ball rules that are still needed with designated jumpers).

Don't hold your breath waiting.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if the rules committee wants everyone on the bench to be apart of a violation, then why not put that in your rules and interpretations.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree 100%. Don't hold your breath waiting.

Some Forum member should be able to contact a NFHS Grand Poobah who can help us out.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree 100%.

In a perfect world, looking through rose colored glasses, the NFHS would always be perfect and would never do anything stupid (backcourt team control on throwin exception; points of emphasis never making it into the rulebook or casebook (swinging elbows contact); changing jump ball to alternating possession forgetting about many jump ball rules that are still needed with designated jumpers).

Don't hold your breath waiting.

I already told you what my state people told us what to do. That is the only stance I will look for unless the NF wants to address this. Not many I know are trying to call a violation on the bench. IJS.

Peace