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cozzmokramer Fri Jan 01, 2021 08:46pm

Disconcerting ?
 
Does disconcerting only apply to free throws? Just wondering because...

A recent varsity basketball game where one team's bench spent most of the game (but most often when the opponent had the ball in front of their bench) in loud unison rhythm clapping. They were obviously coached to do this. I asked someone from their crowd and they said they do it every game.

Even this fan said they didn't like that their team does it. It just seemed unsportsmanlike to me.

Is this just bush league antics or is there any type of action a referee should take?

crosscountry55 Fri Jan 01, 2021 09:11pm

Assuming all bench personnel remained seated, and this action wasn’t specifically directed at a free-thrower, I’ve got nothing more than perhaps a whimsical smirk.

Injecting oneself here is a solution in search of a problem.

By the way, the modern term is “distracting” instead of “disconcerting.” That edit in the rule book language was made a couple of seasons ago.


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JRutledge Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:29pm

There is no such rule to prevent a bench from clapping or chanting. Unless they say something offensive or taunts the opponent, then nothing you should do about this. And certainly not in this day and age with little to no fans in many cases. The rule for disconcertion only addresses this during a free throw and honestly has nothing to do with the bench either by interpretation.

I would not call a thing on this and now would have to address every game with the number of fans at games.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:27am

Opponents Distract Free Throw Shooter ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040744)
The rule for disconcertion only addresses this during a free throw and honestly has nothing to do with the bench either by interpretation.

Disagree.

Please cite the interpretation.

Opponents can be players or bench personnel.

9-1-3-C: No opponent must distract the free thrower.

4-2-1: A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.

9.1.3 SITUATION D: The ball is at the disposal of free thrower A1. B1, within the visual field of A1: (a) raises his/her arms above the head; or (b) after his/her arms have been extended above the head, alternately opens and closes both hands. RULING: B1 may be penalized in both (a) and (b). The official must judge whether the act distracts the free thrower. If the official judges the act in either (a) or (b) to be disconcerting, it shall be penalized. The free thrower is entitled to protection from being distracted. It is the opponent’s responsibility to avoid disconcerting the free thrower. (9-1-3c Penalty 2)

9.1.3 SITUATION E: After A1 starts the free-throw motion, B1 commits a common foul on A2 along the lane before the bonus rule is in effect. RULING: Even if the foul occurs before the ball is in flight, the throw counts if successful. No -substitute try is awarded if the throw is missed. In either case, whether the throw is made or missed, the ball is awarded to Team A at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the foul occurred. If,]in the opinion of the official, A1 has been disconcerted, a substitute throw shall be awarded if the try is unsuccessful. (4-11; 9-1-3c Penalty 2)

9.1.3 SITUATION F: A1 steps on the free-throw line before releasing the ball in an attempt, after which B1 disconcerts. RULING: The ball became dead when A1 violated by stepping on the line, therefore, the action of B1 is not a violation. The ball is awarded to Team B out of bounds at the spot nearest the violation. (7-5-2; 9-1-3e Penalty 1)

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 15: On a final free-throw attempt by A1, B1 commits a lane violation. A1's free throw misses the ring and flange. RULING: Double violation, unless the officials deem B1's act to be disconcerting to the shooter. If this was the last of multiple free throws, play will be resumed by the alternating-possession procedure. (9-1-3, 9-1-5, 9-1-9 Penalty 3)

Revised 1996 Interps SITUATION #17: Al is preparing to attempt the first of two free throws. Bi, who’ is occupying a marked ‘lane space, fakes as if to enter, the lane, prematurely. Al releases the ball but it does not strike the ring or enter the basket. RULING: The violation for faking applies only to players along the lane and only if an opponent enters the lane early because’ of the fake. However, in this .situation, the administering official may judge that the fake disconcerted Al. If disconcertion is called, the violation by, Al is disregarded and a substitute throw is awarded. If disconcertion is not, ruled, Al’s violation cancels the first attempt and the second attempt is awarded. (9-l-3,4,Pen. 3)

2001-2002 NFHS Rulebook- Points Of Emphasis #2 Disconcertion During Free Throws: Disconcertion may occur through hand and arm movements,and verbal outbursts during during the attempt. The committee emphasizes that disconcertion is a violation and may result in a substitute throw. If persistent, or deemed unsporting, the team/player may be penalized with a technical foul.


https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post994853

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post994853

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...oncertlon.html

Raymond Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:47am

Billy, you may be right about 9-1-3c applying to bench personnel, but none of the other citations you posted directly support or address what you are asserting. Do you have anything on point in regards to bench personnel?

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BillyMac Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:08pm

Due Diligence ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040753)
Billy, you may be right about 9-1-3c applying to bench personnel, but none of the other citations you posted directly support or address what you are asserting. Do you have anything on point in regards to bench personnel?

No.

As you pointed out, I threw all the spaghetti at the wall to see what stuck and what didn't stick. None of my citations state that one can't call a distracting violation on bench personnel, and I liked the red highlighted wording in 9.1.3 SITUATION D.

I'll leave it up the other Forum members to find the citations and interpretations that back up JRutledge's assertion that one can't call a distracting violation on bench personnel. I've already done my due diligence as an esteemed Forum member.

The proper interpretation hinges on the NFHS definition of "opponent" (found 152 times in the rulebook but no specific definition).

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.K...=0&w=528&h=178

JRutledge Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040756)
I'll leave it up the other Forum members to find the citations and interpretations that back up JRutledge's assertion that one can't call a distracting violation on bench personal. I've already done my due diligence as an esteemed Forum member.

The proper interpretation hinges on the NFHS definition of "opponent" (found 152 times in the rulebook but no specific definition).

I will put it this way, we have never had anyone in my area assert that you should penalize a bench for disconcertion. This has been addressed multiple ways over the years and basically tells the bench to "knock it off" based on a free throw situation and then if they do not comply use the tools you have to stop it. This OP situation was not about a free throw, but saying something from the bench to players playing on the floor. And if that was the case we would have issues every single game and Ts if we always addressed some situation with the bench for simply being active. There is nothing especially illegal about clapping. Now if they are taunting that is different, but not what I am reading.

I am watching college basketball and see players in the first half of games shoot the ball in front of the defensive team bench and the bench might raise up or yell something. That is very typical. Just do not interfere with the game or come onto the court where we have to see someone avoid you or alter their paths because you are in the way.

Peace

Camron Rust Sat Jan 02, 2021 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040750)
Disagree.

Please cite the interpretation.

Opponents can be players or bench personal.

[I]9-1-3-C: No opponent must distract the free thrower.

There are many places throughout the rules where opponent is used in a context where it is clearly only an opposing player on the court. So, I am not sure you can use the word opponent to infer anything about whether disconcertion applies.

It could be argued that the word opponent is used to indicate that a teammate can't disconcert...as opposed to all of the other elements of the rule that mention players because those elements apply to players on both teams.


That said, it is long been held here on the forum and locally, before I was in a position that mattered, that it applies to bench personnel too.

Here is an old thread discussing the issue:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tion-whom.html

BillyMac Sat Jan 02, 2021 03:21pm

Disconcertion ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040758)
... we have never had anyone in my area assert that you should penalize a bench for disconcertion. This has been addressed multiple ways over the years and basically tells the bench to "knock it off" based on a free throw situation and then if they do not comply use the tools you have to stop it ...

When in Rome ...

One problem in Rome: You give bench personnel (especially in the first half) one free "pass". Free throw shooter is going through his routine preparing to shoot (only one, or first of multiple shots) and at the exact point of release everybody on the opposing bench yells "MISS" at the top of their lungs which obviously startles and distracts the shooter who throws an airball. After that the Roman official tells the bench to "knock it off", but the shot still missed, he and his team still didn't get the point, and he still doesn't get a "do-over" for the missed airball (as he would with a delayed violation for a distraction from an opponent).

BillyMac Sat Jan 02, 2021 03:27pm

Free Throw ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040758)
This OP situation was not about a free throw, but saying something from the bench to players playing on the floor ...

Agree, but JRutledge was one of the posters who broached the situation of a free throw and it having nothing to do with bench personnel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040744)
The rule for disconcertion only addresses this during a free throw and honestly has nothing to do with the bench ...


JRutledge Sat Jan 02, 2021 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040764)
When in Rome ...

One problem in Rome: You give bench personnel (especially in the first half) one free "pass". Free throw shooter is going through his routine preparing to shoot (only one, or first of multiple shots) and at the exact point of release everybody on the opposing bench yells "MISS" at the top of their lungs which obviously startles and distracts the shooter who throws an airball. After that the Roman official tells the bench to "knock it off", but the shot still missed, he and his team still didn't get the point, and he still doesn't get a "do-over" for the missed airball (as he would with a delayed violation for a distraction from an opponent).

I did not say a thing about giving someone a "pass" I said that it would not be addressed as a violation. And depending on the half they are on the other end of the court. As stated this is not specifically addressed in the rules or interpretation as to who is under the rules. All FT violations are based on the players on the court, I think if bench personnel was to be included in this then they could easily say so. No such interpretation at any level exists.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Jan 02, 2021 04:14pm

Knock It Off ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040766)
I did not say a thing about giving someone a "pass" I said that it would not be addressed as a violation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040758)
... tells the bench to "knock it off" based on a free throw situation and then if they do not comply use the tools you have to stop it.

How are you going to tell a team to "knock it off" if they haven't done it yet?

Sounds like your "knock it off" will occur after the first instance of bench personnel yelling, distracting, and startling; all leading to an airball.

Your statement seems to indicate that they will do it once and then you will tell them to "knock it off", and at that point in time you will describe to them any penalties that they may be charged with if they "do not comply" and the improper behavior continues.

Even if you gave them an "oral" warning of future unsporting technical fouls, the air ball still doesn't count, and there's still no "do-over", as many here on the Forum advocate based based on the word "opponent" and "unhindered".

JRutledge Sat Jan 02, 2021 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040767)
How are you going to tell a team to "knock it off" if they haven't done it yet?

Sounds like your "knock it off" will occur after the first instance of bench personnel yelling, distracting, and startling; all leading to an airball.

Your statement seems to indicate that they will do it once and then you will tell them to "knock it off", and at that point in time you will describe to them any penalties that they may be charged with if they do "not comply" and the improper behavior continues.

You read way too much into stuff. I simply said that if the bench is doing something during an FT that might seem out of the ordinary, you just tell them to knock it off. And I felt they were doing something and did not stop, I would only consider a technical foul, not a violation. But during live play, better man up if that bothers you, and all they are doing is making noise.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Jan 02, 2021 04:35pm

Adrenaline Pumping ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040768)
... if the bench is doing something during an FT that might seem out of the ordinary, you just tell them to knock it off.

While I now see your point (because you took the time to word it better), if the yelling "MISS", and the startling came at the split second of the release, it's too late yell "knock it off" to have it be effective for that specific shot attempt (too late to be proactive, can only be reactive).

I believe that you are referring to the bench yelling "Miss", etc., for a few seconds after the ball is at the disposal of the free throw shooter (allowing one to be proactive rather than reactive).

I was talking about a last split second, startling, surprising, heart stopping, adrenaline pumping, "MISS" yell. In my case I believe that the shooter deserves the same delayed violation do-over for a bench distraction that that is allowed for a player distraction.

You define "opponent" different than me, and define "unhindered" different than me. Until the NFHS does a better job defining these two concepts, we have to politely and professionally agree to disagree.

JRutledge Sat Jan 02, 2021 04:47pm

I have never heard players on or off the court say "miss" during a free throw. They usually do other things that could cause noise and just making noise is not enough for me. You keep focusing on this as if I have to agree with you the problem here (what is with people on this site sometimes with that?). I am saying that if they are doing something that might be annoying or vocal to get some attention, then I will address the behavior if I see the need. Usually, this is never an issue with anyone. I do not go around looking for these kinds of things to worry about. Apparently, you do.

Peace


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