Intentional Foul

[LRZ]

Let's not make these discussions--or disagreements--personal.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The player in the OP wasn’t injured.

But we all know it makes you feel better to deflect rather than just ignore or admit you were wrong, so this is par for the course for you.

JRut for President!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Usually when one gets this question, they just think that any free throws shot with the lane spaces cleared entitle them to choose the shooter. That’s because about 80% of the time one sees this, it stemmed from a technical foul.

Good point crosscountry55, looking at it from a coach's perspective.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

If I had a dime for every time a HS coach wanted BI for slapping the backboard while the ball was in the cylinder...

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The backcourt rule (I wish I just had a penny for this one), the slapping the backboard (counting the basket), using "Flagrant 1" in place of Intentional Fouls, and the traveling rule (NBA language).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The player in the OP wasn’t injured.

But we all know it makes you feel better to deflect rather than just ignore or admit you were wrong, so this is par for the course for you.

You realize I was answering the question to let the OPer to understand that the coach was asking for a college rule that had a very specific situation result? We know you do not know that. I am very aware there was no injured player stated and that was not the point and did not care either. If that bothers you, keep it moving. It was not for you.

Stop trying to control every conversation.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

NCAA Women any player on the team may shoot the free throws for an intentional foul.

And another example of where this coach thinks he can choose who shoots the FTs on certain kinds of fouls. Part of being a good official IMO is being aware of rules from multiple levels. You do not need not all of them, but know there are things going to be brought up to you that do not apply to the level most of us work, which is high school. In my 25 years and 4 sports during that time, I would get addressed based on rules that do not apply to the level you are working.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Part of being a good official IMO is being aware of rules from multiple levels. You do not need not all of them, but know there are things going to be brought up to you that do not apply to the level most of us work, which is high school.

Agree. Enough to be aware, but not enough to confuse one.

One of the reasons why I publish my list of Misunderstood Rules (no major changes this year).

Knowing these rule misconceptions in advance can help basketball officials understand where players, coaches, parents, and fans, are “coming from”. Rookie basketball officials can benefit from this article by clearing up any misconceptions that they might have had coming into basketball officiating after years of being a player, or a fan.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1035693

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. Enough to be aware, but not enough to confuse one.

One of the reasons why I publish my list of Misunderstood Rules (no major changes this year).

Knowing these rule misconceptions in advance can help basketball officials understand where players, coaches, parents, and fans, are “coming from”. Rookie basketball officials can benefit from this article by clearing up any misconceptions that they might have had coming into basketball officiating after years of being a player, or a fan.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1035693

And for the record that list is great. I have used it in variation over the years. Often we have to deal with misconceptions as much as real rules and those misconceptions come from other levels of basketball or part of other levels of basketball. I often with coaches unpack the myths of their misconceptions which come from other levels. It is not new. And the NCAA took many little rules that were the same as the NF and change them which caused more confusion lately. I will never stop talking to coaches and addressing these misconceptions. As I as often they do not know what you are talking about and leave it alone because you sound more knowledgeable than they are on the subject as well, which you should be.

I just will never understand people on this site that think these are linear conversations.

Peace

[BigT]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the coach brings up a college rule, just state "The HIGH SCHOOL rule states ...".

I wish I got a dollar every time a coach confused a college rule (or a rule from another sport) with a high school rule over the past forty years.

Maybe then I could afford to buy that villa in Tuscany I've been wanting to retire to?

I tell them this and its worked great over the years.

Kids watch the NBA and college games dreaming of big time.

There are major and minor differences in the rule sets.

In HS we do it this way.

They get the hint they are trying to apply a different rule set and leave us alone. Its awesome.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigT

I tell them this and its worked great over the years.

Here's my forty-year old secret.

When coaches question one's rule interpretation in any way, just quote the rule number. I'm not talking about sections and articles, or the words, just the rule number.

One only has to know a few: Rule 9 Violations, Rule 10 Fouls, Rule 7 Out of Bounds and Throwin, Rule 8 Free Throws, and of course, the "Duct Tape" of the rulebook, Rule 4 Definitions.

(If one isn't sure, just say Rule 4, "Coach, that's a proper adjudication of Rule 4".)

Most coaches think that there are hundreds of rules, so they'll be impressed that one can quote Rule number 4 the same manner as one could quote Rule number 126.

They'll scratch their head and seem dumbfounded and during that momentary lapse in arguing one can be all the way over on the other side of the gym.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Knowing these rule misconceptions in advance can help basketball officials understand where players, coaches, parents, and fans, are “coming from” ...

Kind of like how every single one of us knows what to expect when a player intentionally slaps a backboard during a try so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it's an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration; and then the ball falls off the ring and doesn't enter the basket as the backboard is still vibrating.

Even after we charge the technical foul, we all are prepared for the fact that it won't end there, we're still going to have to deal with a confused, ignorant, irate coach.

[swkansasref33]

Thanks for the spirited discussion all!

Sorry for going AWOL, I posted this, and then tested positive for COVID later that day (luckily, fairly asymptomatic), and am just getting back into the swing of things!

It was an intentional personal foul (player reached out and grabbed a cutter with both hands and partner ruled it intentional).

With that being said.... can anyone give an example of a personal technical foul? I can't think of what that might entail, and couldn't find an example in the case book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

Thanks for the spirited discussion all!

Sorry for going AWOL, I posted this, and then tested positive for COVID later that day (luckily, fairly asymptomatic), and am just getting back into the swing of things!

It was an intentional personal foul (player reached out and grabbed a cutter with both hands and partner ruled it intentional).

With that being said.... can anyone give an example of a personal technical foul? I can't think of what that might entail, and couldn't find an example in the case book.

12 days--that's how long my symptoms hung around.

There are no personal technical fouls. Do you mean Intentional Technical Foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

... can anyone give an example of a personal technical foul?

No such thing. By rule, they are 100% mutually exclusive.



4-19-1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

4-19-5: A technical foul is:
a. A foul by a non-player.
b. A non-contact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter

Personal: Player and contact and live ball (must have all three).
Technical: Any non-player, or any non-contact, or player dead ball intentional/flagrant (only) contact.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No such thing. By rule, they are 100% mutually exclusive.

4-19-1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

4-19-5: A technical foul is:
a. A foul by a non-player.
b. A non-contact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter

The red part is the key. ITF means the ball was dead. So let’s say there’d been a common foul away from the ball half a second before, and then for good measure the player challenging the cutter decided to grab her as you described anyway. That would be an ITF because the ball was dead at that point. That matters for a) DQ purposes, b) who can shoot the free throws (anyone), and c) where you administer the throw-in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

It was an intentional personal foul (player reached out and grabbed a cutter with both hands and partner ruled it intentional).

With that being said.... can anyone give an example of a personal technical foul? I can't think of what that might entail, and couldn't find an example in the case book.

All fouls are either Personal or Technical, they cannot be both. And only Technical fouls in the NF code can result in the offended coach choosing the shooter. Not the case with any Personal foul (Intentional or Flagrant). Only in a situation where a player is either injured or disqualied does the sub shoot there FT.

I guess the best way to say this, if you have a flagrant personal foul, then only the player fouled can shoot. But if you have a flagrant technical, anyone can shoot that is eligible (like an unsporting act or act during a dead ball)

Peace