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swkansasref33 Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:00pm

Intentional Foul
 
Had an intentional foul in a game last night, and the coach questioned me on why he doesn't get to choose the shooter. I told him because it is a contact foul on a player, so that player shoots. He understood, but asked if I would send him the rule reference, and I cannot find the rule that covers who shoots for the life of me in the book.

Any chance someone has dealt with this recently and has it handily?

JRutledge Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:11pm

Tell him, "The rule only allows the shooter to be the offended player. This is not college, this is high school."

Keep it simple.

Peace

SC Official Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040714)
Tell him, "The rule only allows the shooter to be the offended player. This is not college, this is high school."

Keep it simple.

Peace

The coach doesnít get to choose the shooter in menís college, either.

JRutledge Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1040715)
The coach doesn’t get to choose the shooter in men’s college, either.

There is no intentional foul in college. And there is a situation where they can if there is an injury and a flagrant foul being called. So that is where they get that from, just like coaches think the ball hitting the backboard first means you have a goaltending violation. There is a little more nuance to the rule and some specifics that most do not understand. I just tell a coach that they are trying to have us enforce a college rule and leave it at that. Usually, that ends the conversation or they do not have enough knowledge to continue to win that argument.

And for clarity purposes I added this.

In NCAA Men's rules, if a player is injured, the opposing head coach can choose amongst the 4 players left on the court to shoot the free throws.

If the injury is when there is a flagrant foul, the player's head coach can choose any player or team member to shoot the free throws.

If the player that is injured is bleeding, then the head coach of that player can decide to put in the substitute to shoot the free throws.

All stated under Rule 8-3.3. I am not going into that kind of detail with a high school coach that thinks he has the same privileges.

Peace

BillyMac Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:34pm

Matthew 7:7 ...
 
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

8-2: The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul must be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute must attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach.

8-3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain must designate the free thrower(s).

bob jenkins Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 1040713)
Had an intentional foul

Was it an intentional PERSONAL foul or an intentional TECHNICAL foul?

That should help you.

BillyMac Thu Dec 31, 2020 01:01pm

It's Alive ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1040718)
Was it an intentional PERSONAL foul or an intentional TECHNICAL foul?

Good point.

I assumed that swkansasref33 meant intentional personal, but we all know what happens when one assumes.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.4...=0&w=248&h=181

The "contact" he mentions could have been personal, or technical; depending on the whether it was a live ball, or a dead ball foul.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.4...=0&w=223&h=166

Jfpdi Thu Dec 31, 2020 01:27pm

NCAA Women any player on the team may shoot the free throws for an intentional foul.

SC Official Thu Dec 31, 2020 02:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040716)
There is no intentional foul in college. And there is a situation where they can if there is an injury and a flagrant foul being called. So that is where they get that from, just like coaches think the ball hitting the backboard first means you have a goaltending violation. There is a little more nuance to the rule and some specifics that most do not understand. I just tell a coach that they are trying to have us enforce a college rule and leave it at that. Usually, that ends the conversation or they do not have enough knowledge to continue to win that argument.

And for clarity purposes I added this.

In NCAA Men's rules, if a player is injured, the opposing head coach can choose amongst the 4 players left on the court to shoot the free throws.

If the injury is when there is a flagrant foul, the player's head coach can choose any player or team member to shoot the free throws.

If the player that is injured is bleeding, then the head coach of that player can decide to put in the substitute to shoot the free throws.

All stated under Rule 8-3.3. I am not going into that kind of detail with a high school coach that thinks he has the same privileges.

Peace

There was no injury or blood in the OP so your point is moot. Intentional fouls and F1 fouls are enforced exactly the same way. Bringing ďcollege rulesĒ into this discussion with the coach serves no purpose.

Itís okay to admit you were wrong.

BillyMac Thu Dec 31, 2020 02:41pm

Federation Rules ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1040721)
Bringing “college rules” into this discussion with the coach serves no purpose.

If the coach brings up a college rule, just state "The HIGH SCHOOL rule states ...".

I wish I got a dollar every time a coach confused a college rule (or a rule from another sport) with a high school rule over the past forty years.

Maybe then I could afford to buy that villa in Tuscany I've been wanting to retire to?

BillyMac Thu Dec 31, 2020 02:43pm

Intentional Foul ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040719)
I assumed that swkansasref33 meant intentional personal, but we all know what happens when one assumes.

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/sess...?cb=1421515709

crosscountry55 Thu Dec 31, 2020 07:36pm

Usually when one gets this question, they just think that any free throws shot with the lane spaces cleared entitle them to choose the shooter. Thatís because about 80% of the time one sees this, it stemmed from a technical foul.

Or maybe JRut was right, and the coach was (incorrectly, mind you) applying an NCAA rule in his head. This is an example where, while certainly an NFHS official is not required to know NCAA rules, it doesnít hurt to at least have a working knowledge of some of the key differences. Because JRut is right, they watch games on ESPN and then expect to see the same rules adjudicated in their games. If I had a dime for every time a HS coach wanted BI for slapping the backboard while the ball was in the cylinder....


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JRutledge Thu Dec 31, 2020 09:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1040721)
There was no injury or blood in the OP so your point is moot. Intentional fouls and F1 fouls are enforced exactly the same way. Bringing “college rules” into this discussion with the coach serves no purpose.

It’s okay to admit you were wrong.

Actually, they are not exactly the same. They are in principle but as stated when a player is injured there is a different application. It is OK that you did not know the difference, not my issue to make. You did not ask the question. Because chances are the coach is asking a question from a higher level and does not know the difference. I am just fine with my position until clarified by the OPer who might tell us that there was a technical foul, which clearly the coach of his own team can pick the shooter or he thinks because an intentional foul is called he has some say (which he doesn't).

I'm good with my answer and Bob made a good point it does matter if it is an Intentional Technical foul which was not my thought process because a different shooter can be than the offended player (if there is one).

You can admit you are making this harder than it has to be. Not trying to be right, trying to explain what my answer would be to move on from that conversation. Worked all these years in multiple sports BTW.

You can tell a coach whatever the hell you wish to tell them when you are talking to them. We are not the same people and not the same experience. I know there are things I say you could never get away with when dealing with the right coach. So I will say what works for me and you can state what works for you. ;)

Peace

JRutledge Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1040724)
Usually when one gets this question, they just think that any free throws shot with the lane spaces cleared entitle them to choose the shooter. Thatís because about 80% of the time one sees this, it stemmed from a technical foul.

Or maybe JRut was right, and the coach was (incorrectly, mind you) applying an NCAA rule in his head. This is an example where, while certainly an NFHS official is not required to know NCAA rules, it doesnít hurt to at least have a working knowledge of some of the key differences. Because JRut is right, they watch games on ESPN and then expect to see the same rules adjudicated in their games. If I had a dime for every time a HS coach wanted BI for slapping the backboard while the ball was in the cylinder....

High school coaches invoke college and NBA Rules all the time when arguing plays and rules. It happens all the time in football because there are so many subtle differences which really confuses coaches. At least in basketball, it happens multiple times a year and I have had coaches insist they were right and take you to task on that issue. The backcourt rule (I wish I just had a penny for this one), the slapping the backboard (counting the basket), using "Flagrant 1" in place of Intentional Fouls, and the traveling rule (NBA language). They bring up all this stuff that I know right off the bat is what they saw or heard some commentator say on TV.

Maybe we will get clarification from the OPer what the coach was trying to say or give more information about what the conversation all about but this to me is a classic college rule confusion. I have had coaches say the same thing to me. ;)

Peace

SC Official Fri Jan 01, 2021 08:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040725)
Actually, they are not exactly the same. They are in principle but as stated when a player is injured there is a different application.
Peace

The player in the OP wasnít injured.

But we all know it makes you feel better to deflect rather than just ignore or admit you were wrong, so this is par for the course for you.


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