Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[BillyMac]

Early stages, I'm kind of maybe possibly thinking about writing an educational article on jump balls.

I was reviewing the rules and came up with these odd scenarios.

First some rules:

The tossed ball must be touched by one or both of the jumpers after it reaches its highest point. If the ball contacts the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss it again.

To start the game and each extra period, the ball shall be put in play in the center restraining circle by a jump ball between any two opponents.

If play is started or resumed by a jump ball, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

The ball becomes live when the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s).

The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3.

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

3) Another similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute non-jumper A6 for non-jumper A5. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table. A5 is not injured nor is A5 bleeding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

3) Another similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute non-jumper A6 for non-jumper A5. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table. A5 is not injured nor is A5 bleeding.

Sixty views and no replies, why is everyone being so bashful?

Here's my take on these situations.

Regarding Situation 1 and Situation 2, since A1 was a "designated" jumper, I don't believe that he can be substituted for, or removed as the jumper, unless he's injured or bleeding.

Note: In these two situations, I'm a little unsteady about the meaning of "designated". During the first jump ball (that one that hit the floor untouched) A1 was "designated" by the coach, not by rule, so does that "coach designation" continue into the second jump ball, or is A1 now the jumper by "rule designation" (as where two nonjumpers simultaneously gain possession of the jump ball at the same time, leading to a held ball (and a jump ball) before the alternating possession arrow has been set)?

Regarding Situation 3, the ball became live on the toss, the game started, even though the clock didn't start. Since players don't have to play "a tick", A6 should be allowed to substitute for A5.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Regarding Situation 3, the ball became live on the toss, the game started, even though the clock didn't start. Since players don't have to play "a tick", A6 should be allowed to substitute for A5.

At the beginning of the game, I agree. However, if A6 was a player at the end of 4Q and was subbed out during the intermission, he cannot re-enter until after he "sits a tick."

Edit: Just realized Sit 1 specifies "to begin the game" and Sits 2 and 3 say "similar situation." So, you all can ignore this if you want.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

At the beginning of the game, I agree. However, if A6 was a player at the end of 4Q and was subbed out during the intermission, he cannot re-enter until after he "sits a tick." Edit: Just realized Sit 1 specifies "to begin the game" and Sits 2 and 3 say "similar situation." So, you all can ignore this if you want.

Still a valid point for the good of the cause.



For extra credit, under what rare situation does the "Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick" not apply and a substitute is allowed to enter the game without having to sit a tick?

[Nevadaref]

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game. There is now only one situation in which a player is a designated jumper. You mentioned it in your earlier post—following a jump ball, two players create a held ball prior to player control being gained and the possession arrow being established. Under NFHS rules, those two players must now participate in a jump ball. Note: the NCAA recently changed its ruling on this to allow any two jumpers to conduct such a jump ball.

I’ll also note that your substitution scenarios are no different from a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched. Yep, I’ve actually had this happen in a HS game. So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.
Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For extra credit, under what rare situation does the "Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick" not apply and a substitute is allowed to enter the game without having to sit a tick?

There isn’t one. MTD’s case play ruling is incorrect. Sad that Mary Struckhoff was convinced by it. The team should comply with the substitution rule and temporarily play with four as an older case play ruling states to do when a player has an asthma attack.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game ...

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or a switched jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There isn’t one. MTD’s case play ruling is incorrect. Sad that Mary Struckhoff was convinced by it. The team should comply with the substitution rule and temporarily play with four as an older case play ruling states to do when a player has an asthma attack.

Sorry Nevadaref, I should have know that this situation "yanks your chain".

But as President Trump stated a few weeks ago, "It is what it is".

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1037607

And Nevadaref still gets the extra credit.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched ... So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

For example, the best free throw shooter on team was a player on the court at the end of regulation, but didn't start the overtime period and was not on the floor for the overtime jump ball when the technical foul occurred before the clock started? Does the team's best free throw shooter, who is on the bench, have to sit a tick to attempt the technical foul free throws?

8-3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by
any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or
designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower(s).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or switched as the jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

Agree.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

Agree (good explanation for the reasoning behind the rule), but the "designated"" wording is still in the rulebook.

3-3-2: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

Is "must" really "must" in my first two situations?

[BillyMac]

I'm surprised that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. hasn't chimed in, this thread contains two of his favorite topics, jump balls (nobody loves jump balls more than Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.), and playing with five trumping sitting a tick (Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s favorite casebook play).



Young'uns can look it up on the Google.