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Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 02:10pm
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Injury with no sub available.

During rebounding action, layer A2 rolls an ankle and coach has to come out on the floor to tend to the player. Team A only had 6 players to begin with, and one player has already fouled out. Team A is out of timeouts. No sub available. Does A2 have to sit out a play until the clock has started and stopped?? Please cite rule to support answer.


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Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 02:30pm
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Sit A Tick ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhistlesAndStripes View Post
During rebounding action, layer A2 rolls an ankle and coach has to come out on the floor to tend to the player. Team A only had 6 players to begin with, and one player has already fouled out. Team A is out of timeouts. No sub available. Does A2 have to sit out a play until the clock has started and stopped??
Playing with five trumps "sit a tick".

Regarding the necessity of playing with five players if a team has five "players", it is my understanding that in cases where the fifth participant is on the bench waiting to "sit a tick" (and thus ineligible at the time) the "must have five players participating as long as it has that number available" rule overrides the "must not reenter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his replacement" rule. i.e. "must sit a tick".

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no
substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with
fewer than five.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 15, 2020 at 11:01am.
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Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 04:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhistlesAndStripes View Post
During rebounding action, layer A2 rolls an ankle and coach has to come out on the floor to tend to the player. Team A only had 6 players to begin with, and one player has already fouled out. Team A is out of timeouts. No sub available. Does A2 have to sit out a play until the clock has started and stopped?? Please cite rule to support answer.


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Yes, despite what MTD’s case book play says.
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Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 04:50pm
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Old Casebook Plays Never Die ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Yes, despite what MTD’s case book play says.
The casebook play says to let him in, and as far as I know, there hasn't been any relevant rule change, new casebook play, casebook play error correction, or editorial change, making the NFHS casebook play invalid.

Weak point, but 3-1-1 still says "substitutes, not "eligible substitutes".

Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B is still the "gold standard" until one can come up with something better.

Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B together with a weak 3-1-1 create a citation duo that probably trumps the single 3-3-4 citation.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 17, 2020 at 11:30am.
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Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 10:31pm
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Despite NevadaRef's learned opinion my CB Play (8.2 Situation B) is the governing Ruling. Team A's right to play with five (5) players trumps all other rules.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:03am
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Disqualified ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Team A's right to play with five (5) players trumps all other rules.
Not really. Disqualified?
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Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 12:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Not really. Disqualified?

Let me clarify. I meant within the parameters of the situation were are discussing and similar situations.

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Old Mon Feb 17, 2020, 07:30am
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Billy, since you asked: This was the governing NFHS ruling prior to MTD convincing Mary Struckhoff otherwise and getting his case play put in the book.
Most on the forum are aware that Mary was certainly no rules genius, as evidenced by her infamous backcourt interpretation.

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)
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Old Mon Feb 17, 2020, 11:17am
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Survived The Test Of Time ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
This was the governing NFHS ruling prior to MTD convincing Mary Struckhoff otherwise and getting his case play put in the book.
2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

2008-09 Through 2019-20 NFHS Casebook
Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)


A seventeen year old, one time NFHS annual interpretation (probably not available to new officials for the past seventeen years), or a caseplay published in the NFHS Casebook (the one printed on dead trees) every year for the past eleven years, and still exists in the current casebook?

I know which interpretation I'm following.

Just like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., this casebook play has survived the test of time.

Of course so have cockroaches, horseshoe crabs, snapping turtles, crocodiles, and coelacanths.

Funny how all these "living fossils" remind me of Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 18, 2020 at 07:22pm.
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