Team control throwin. Foul purposes only

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I thought team control was only for purposes of a foul during a throw-in?

That's what we've been told.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... it sounds like there are things being discussed that have nothing to do with fouls.

Yes they are (inadvertent whistle).

Originally Posted by Zoochy

... what happens when a throw-in is touched but before anybody secures control of the ball, the official sounds an inadvertent whistle? Is Team A in control of the ball?

Originally Posted by billyu2

We were emphatically told that all previous rulings on throw-in situations remain the same.

Yes we were.

2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul.

Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws.

2014-15 Points Of Emphasis
Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

But we're still stuck with these definitions.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

4-12-4: While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in
control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap
for goal.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds,
except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member
of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from
the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.

[bucky]

I seem to recall discussing this at length in another thread. The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW. My memory could be off though.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW.

Agree.

It just doesn't seem right that between the non-possession (muff) touch inbounds and the eventual player/team control, the official can't use team control for an inadvertent whistle, but can use team control for a team control foul.

The NFHS has patched together a new rule (throwin team control), with exceptions (backcourt, etc.), along with a few Points of Emphasis (that don't make it into the rulebook), with a heavy dose of annual interpretations (that don't make it into the casebook).

I like the throwin team control rule change, but it seems that the NFHS could have done a better job of writing it in the rulebook.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by bucky

I seem to recall discussing this at length in another thread. The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW. My memory could be off though.

You recall a thread I posted last year. It generated a lot of discussion. So I sent the play to IAABO. Question: A1 has the ball for a Throw-in. B1 tips the throw-in ball. As the ball crosses the division line and Before anyone establish player control, the official blow an inadvertent whistle. Possession arrow points to Team B.

Who gets the ball and where is the throw-in?

IAABO President 2016-17 David Smith, CO. and other IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, the consensus was to give the ball to Team A. Team A had Team control. He gave contradicting locations for the Throw-in. One was at the location of the ball at the time of the IW. The other was the location when the ball was last touched.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

A1 has the ball for a Throw-in. B1 tips the throw-in ball. As the ball crosses the division line and Before anyone establish player control, the official blow an inadvertent whistle. Possession arrow points to Team B. Who gets the ball and where is the throw-in? IAABO President 2016-17 David Smith, CO. and other IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, the consensus was to give the ball to Team A. Team A had Team control.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1035385

IAABO interpretations are not the same as NFHS interpretations, and carry no weight outside of IAABO (if that).

I'm a proud IAABO member myself, and this apparent contradiction of NFHS rules by very competent IAABO co-coordinators of interpreters just demonstrates the "patchwork" quality of this ugly combination of this NFHS rule (including exceptions), NFHS Points of Emphasis, and NFHS annual interpretations.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Cue the Benny Hill theme song (Yakety Sax).

[BillyMac]

I came across this nugget of wisdom while researching Zoochy's original thread:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... Team control for fouls begins when the thrower has the ball.
Team control for ALL other purposes begins when a player inbounds established layer control.
Both forms of team control end in the same way: dead ball, other team gains control, or a try is released.
This rule really needs to be rewritten.

Agree four times.