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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?
Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 05:06pm
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Team Control Ends ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.
Thank you for confirming what I believed to be true.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.


I got sidetracked by the throwin ending.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 09:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?
FWIW

Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed."
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 10, 2020, 08:57am
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Fumble ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed."
Good point. Thanks.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 10, 2020, 12:20pm
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The Throwin Ended ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I got sidetracked by the throwin ending
Here's what sidetracked me:

2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul.

Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws.

2014-15 Points Of Emphasis
Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.


In my play, the throwin ended.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds,
except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.


I'm not saying that Camron Rust is incorrect, but would like further discussion.

I know that I'm being too literal, but is this yet another example of the NFHS using inexact language?

Not only does the NFHS state "during a throw-in", but it also states "when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal".

Also, the NFHS states "exists", not "begins".

In my play the throw-in had ended, and the ball was no longer at the disposal of the thrower-in (and team control had not yet been established inbounds).

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.


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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 10, 2020 at 01:06pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 10, 2020, 01:09pm
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Passed Among Teammates ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm not saying that Camron Rust is incorrect, but would like further discussion.
For those that agree with Camron Rust's interpretation (that may include me), here's something that you may hang your hat on:

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.


4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.


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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 10, 2020 at 02:21pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 11, 2020, 09:21am
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The Coup De Grce ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
For those that agree with Camron Rust's interpretation (that may include me), here's something that you may hang your hat on:

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.


4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6)

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 11, 2020 at 10:20am.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 11, 2020, 11:27am
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It's just such a poorly written rule. You are correct in pointing out that a throw-in ends when it touches anybody inbounds. And if team control exists for the purposes of the throw-in only, they have not clearly defined what the status of the ball is once it touches or deflects off an offensive player.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 11, 2020, 02:28pm
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Stupid NFHS ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It's just such a poorly written rule.
Changing team control from only inbounds to also include out of bounds during a throwin, coupled with the exception for backcourt violations during a throwin, has to be the biggest fiasco ever by the NFHS. If not ever, than certainly during the forty years that I've been officiating.

I think that it's a good rule change, I get it, but the NFHS has had trouble putting in writing, with at least two Points of Emphasis, and several annual interpretations, that still don't do a great job of fully explaining the rule, and that's topped off with the cherry of not putting it permanently into the actual rule book for everyone, especially rookies, to see every year.

These Points of Emphasis and annual interpretations are simply "patches" and aren't really permanent fixes.

Stupid NFHS.

Why not make the throwin team control legal for everything (say that the thrower has player control) with no exception for backcourt? Throwins from a frontcourt sideline or endline can only be legally passed into the frontcourt. Many ignorant fans already think that that's the actual rule.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 11, 2020 at 05:33pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 12, 2020, 12:51am
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Billy, look at the definition of team control foul. What you seek is included there.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 12, 2020, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

Why not make the throwin team control legal for everything (say that the thrower has player control) with no exception for backcourt? Throwins from a frontcourt sideline or endline can only be legally passed into the frontcourt. Many ignorant fans already think that that's the actual rule.
It could be a lot easier than that, and without unintended consequences. We already have a "player control foul" when there is a foul by an airborne shooter who doesn't actually have player control. Something similar could also be done for team control fouls.

In fact, we really have no need to the distinction between player control fouls and team control fouls and haven't had since they changed the penalty for team control fouls to be the same as player control fouls so many years ago. Instead, eliminate the definitions of both team control foul and player control foul and create a new foul type called "offensive" foul. You'd keep the definitions of team control and player control because they have other implications. Just change the foul definition.

I propose something like this:

"Offensive" fouls would apply when:
  • the team has the ball at their disposal
  • the ball is in flight during a throw-in
  • the ball has been thrown until either team gains control
  • team control exists
  • a airborne shooter commits a foul
Where the penalty for an "offensive" foul would be not shots and possession to the offended team as is currently done for both the player control and team control fouls.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 13, 2020, 02:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It could be a lot easier than that, and without unintended consequences. We already have a "player control foul" when there is a foul by an airborne shooter who doesn't actually have player control. Something similar could also be done for team control fouls.

In fact, we really have no need to the distinction between player control fouls and team control fouls and haven't had since they changed the penalty for team control fouls to be the same as player control fouls so many years ago. Instead, eliminate the definitions of both team control foul and player control foul and create a new foul type called "offensive" foul. You'd keep the definitions of team control and player control because they have other implications. Just change the foul definition.

I propose something like this:

"Offensive" fouls would apply when:
  • the team has the ball at their disposal
  • the ball is in flight during a throw-in
  • the ball has been thrown until either team gains control
  • team control exists
  • a airborne shooter commits a foul
Where the penalty for an "offensive" foul would be not shots and possession to the offended team as is currently done for both the player control and team control fouls.
I agree. The distinction between player and team control fouls is a distinction without a difference, because the penalties for both types of fouls are identical (loss of possession). The "loose-ball foul" category may fall under team control fouls (because there is no player control while the ball is loose), but some codes have distinct provisions to address those fouls (NCAAM treats loose-ball fouls as regular fouls for purposes of the bonus, and NBA has its own penalties for loose-ball fouls committed before the offended team is in the bonus, otherwise loose-ball fouls follow normal bonus rules).

Ball at disposal = control anyway, because once the ball is at a teams disposal, only that team may request and be granted timeout (for a live-ball timeout request to be honored, it must come from the team in control of the ball + player control, if the ball is inbounds).
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 13, 2020, 04:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It's just such a poorly written rule. You are correct in pointing out that a throw-in ends when it touches anybody inbounds. And if team control exists for the purposes of the throw-in only, they have not clearly defined what the status of the ball is once it touches or deflects off an offensive player.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Billy, look at the definition of team control foul. What you seek is included there.
This is the rule to which I was directing Billy. It covers the gap noted by Billy from the time that an inbounds player touches the throw-in pass, yet does not control the ball. This rule clarifies precisely what Raymond says is not clearly definded by the NFHS.

NFHS 4-19-7: "...A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds."
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 13, 2020, 08:17am
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Cherry On Top Of The Sundae ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS 4-19-7: "...A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds."
Nice.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 13, 2020, 08:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It could be a lot easier than that, and without unintended consequences. We already have a "player control foul" when there is a foul by an airborne shooter who doesn't actually have player control. Something similar could also be done for team control fouls.

In fact, we really have no need to the distinction between player control fouls and team control fouls and haven't had since they changed the penalty for team control fouls to be the same as player control fouls so many years ago. Instead, eliminate the definitions of both team control foul and player control foul and create a new foul type called "offensive" foul. You'd keep the definitions of team control and player control because they have other implications. Just change the foul definition.

I propose something like this:

"Offensive" fouls would apply when:
  • the team has the ball at their disposal
  • the ball is in flight during a throw-in
  • the ball has been thrown until either team gains control
  • team control exists
  • a airborne shooter commits a foul
Where the penalty for an "offensive" foul would be not shots and possession to the offended team as is currently done for both the player control and team control fouls.
So, if a try or tap by Team A is in flight when a personal foul is called on any Team A player, this would be considered an "offensive" foul?
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