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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 13, 2020, 09:15pm
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No longer Back Court Violation

SITUATION 7: A1, in the teams frontcourt, passes towards A2, also in the teams frontcourt. B1 deflects the ball toward Team As backcourt. The ball bounces only in Team As frontcourt before crossing the division line. While the ball is still in the air over Team As backcourt, but never having touched in Team As backcourt, A2 gains possession of the ball while standing in Team As backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. Team A was still in team control and caused the ball to have backcourt status. Had A2 permitted the ball to bounce in the backcourt after having been deflected by B1, there would have been no backcourt violation. (4-4-1, 4-4-3, 9-9-1)

Please remember that this interp has been changed (2 years ago?). It is no longer a Back Court violation
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 13, 2020, 09:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It's just such a poorly written rule. You are correct in pointing out that a throw-in ends when it touches anybody inbounds. And if team control exists for the purposes of the throw-in only, they have not clearly defined what the status of the ball is once it touches or deflects off an offensive player.

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So my question is... what happens when a throw-in is touched (as mentioned by Raymond) but before anybody secures control of the ball, the official sounds an inadvertent whistle?
Is Team A in control of the ball? What would have the ruling been before 2011?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 07:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
So my question is... what happens when a throw-in is touched (as mentioned by Raymond) but before anybody secures control of the ball, the official sounds an inadvertent whistle?

Is Team A in control of the ball? What would have the ruling been before 2011?
Maybe that's the part of the rule that I was thinking about when I commented earlier. I can't access the rules online right now and I'm not going to dig up last season's high school rule book anytime soon (I didn't work any high school games last year because I got injured in a college game for the high school season started).

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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jul 14, 2020 at 07:38am.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 08:53am
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Team Control Continues ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
... what happens when a throw-in is touched but before anybody secures control of the ball, the official sounds an inadvertent whistle? Is Team A in control of the ball?
Yes.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 09:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Yes.



4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:

a. When a player of the team is in control.

b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

c. During an interrupted dribble.

d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.



4-12-3: Team control continues until:

a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

b. An opponent secures control.

c. The ball becomes dead.
Sounds like normal team control to me. I thought team control was only for purposes of a foul during a throw-in?

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 09:21am
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It sounds like we are jumbling up multiple things into this conversation. Isn't this about how to apply team control for foul purposes? The rule on that is very clear. How we adjudicate some violations with team control can be another issue all together. Maybe I just have not read everything in detail, but it sounds like there are things being discussed that have nothing to do with fouls.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 09:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
So my question is... what happens when a throw-in is touched (as mentioned by Raymond) but before anybody secures control of the ball, the official sounds an inadvertent whistle?
Is Team A in control of the ball? What would have the ruling been before 2011?
The previous rule read: "Neither a team nor any player is ever in control during a dead ball, or during a jump ball or throw-in or when the ball is in flight during a try for goal. In your question, the touching ends the throw-in but neither team has control. The inadvertent whistle would result in an AP throw-in. If the IW occurred prior to touching, the throw-in would not have ended and the point of interruption would be a new throw-in for Team A. Keep in mind the new rule in my opinion does nothing to change that since team control by the throw-in team specifically applies only to a foul committed by the throw in team. We were emphatically told that all previous rulings on throw-in situations remain the same.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
The previous rule read: "Neither a team nor any player is ever in control during a dead ball, or during a jump ball or throw-in or when the ball is in flight during a try for goal. In your question, the touching ends the throw-in but neither team has control. The inadvertent whistle would result in an AP throw-in. If the IW occurred prior to touching, the throw-in would not have ended and the point of interruption would be a new throw-in for Team A. Keep in mind the new rule in my opinion does nothing to change that since team control by the throw-in team specifically applies only to a foul committed by the throw in team. We were emphatically told that all previous rulings on throw-in situations remain the same.
That's what I remember in regards to an inadvertent whistle after a throw-in has been touched.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 14, 2020, 11:26am
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Inadvertent Whistle ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I thought team control was only for purposes of a foul during a throw-in?
That's what we've been told.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... it sounds like there are things being discussed that have nothing to do with fouls.
Yes they are (inadvertent whistle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
... what happens when a throw-in is touched but before anybody secures control of the ball, the official sounds an inadvertent whistle? Is Team A in control of the ball?
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
We were emphatically told that all previous rulings on throw-in situations remain the same.
Yes we were.

2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul.

Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws.

2014-15 Points Of Emphasis
Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.


But we're still stuck with these definitions.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.


4-12-4: While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in
control of the team whose player last had control,
unless it is a try or tap
for goal.


4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds,
except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.


4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member
of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from
the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.


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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jul 15, 2020 at 12:52pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 16, 2020, 01:57pm
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I seem to recall discussing this at length in another thread. The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW. My memory could be off though.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 16, 2020, 02:26pm
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Stupid NFHS ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW.
Agree.

It just doesn't seem right that between the non-possession (muff) touch inbounds and the eventual player/team control, the official can't use team control for an inadvertent whistle, but can use team control for a team control foul.

The NFHS has patched together a new rule (throwin team control), with exceptions (backcourt, etc.), along with a few Points of Emphasis (that don't make it into the rulebook), with a heavy dose of annual interpretations (that don't make it into the casebook).

I like the throwin team control rule change, but it seems that the NFHS could have done a better job of writing it in the rulebook.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 17, 2020 at 08:30am.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 17, 2020, 08:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I seem to recall discussing this at length in another thread. The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW. My memory could be off though.
You recall a thread I posted last year. It generated a lot of discussion. So I sent the play to IAABO. Question: A1 has the ball for a Throw-in. B1 tips the throw-in ball. As the ball crosses the division line and Before anyone establish player control, the official blow an inadvertent whistle. Possession arrow points to Team B.

Who gets the ball and where is the throw-in?

IAABO President 2016-17 David Smith, CO. and other IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, the consensus was to give the ball to Team A. Team A had Team control. He gave contradicting locations for the Throw-in. One was at the location of the ball at the time of the IW. The other was the location when the ball was last touched.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 18, 2020, 09:10am
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Patchwork ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
A1 has the ball for a Throw-in. B1 tips the throw-in ball. As the ball crosses the division line and Before anyone establish player control, the official blow an inadvertent whistle. Possession arrow points to Team B. Who gets the ball and where is the throw-in? IAABO President 2016-17 David Smith, CO. and other IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, the consensus was to give the ball to Team A. Team A had Team control.
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1035385

IAABO interpretations are not the same as NFHS interpretations, and carry no weight outside of IAABO (if that).

I'm a proud IAABO member myself, and this apparent contradiction of NFHS rules by very competent IAABO co-coordinators of interpreters just demonstrates the "patchwork" quality of this ugly combination of this NFHS rule (including exceptions), NFHS Points of Emphasis, and NFHS annual interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Cue the Benny Hill theme song (Yakety Sax).

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 18, 2020 at 11:45am.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 18, 2020, 09:22am
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Nugget Of Wisdom ...

I came across this nugget of wisdom while researching Zoochy's original thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... Team control for fouls begins when the thrower has the ball.
Team control for ALL other purposes begins when a player inbounds established layer control.
Both forms of team control end in the same way: dead ball, other team gains control, or a try is released.
This rule really needs to be rewritten.
Agree four times.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 18, 2020 at 03:14pm.
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